Transition from steam to diesel in the Bristol area

[jules]

There were, of course, other London trains which were steam worked due to diesel failures and unavailability.

I am not quite old enough to remember much of these years, having been born in 1959. But one memory I do have shows a fascinating (to me) perception of the traveling public at that time.

The occasion was my very first day out to London with my Auntie and her friend - it would have been 1963 or '64. Amidst huge excitement, we took one of the new "diesel trains" from Temple Meads to Paddington. At the end of our day out, we arrived back at Paddington, whereupon my Aunt exclaimed "Oh no - our train has a steam engine! It's going to be a slow and dirty ride home." I plainly recall the general moans of dissatisfaction from many other passengers too.

I have since seen much publicity from the era and it is apparent that the Western Region (and probably all others) committed substantial marketing resource to the promotion of their new diesel loco fleets, as to their being faster, cleaner - and "more reliable" (sic - during the early days at least!)

However, what is plain from this small memory is that by 1963/64, the traveling public seem to have been well and truly "educated" into a positive appreciation of the new diesels and a healthy dislike of "dirty old steam engines". Hardly surprising considering the level of investment that went on during the modernisation period, I suppose.

Strange how perceptions change over the years - most people would be queuing up for a trip to Paddington behind a Castle or a King nowadays. But in the early 60s and set against Harold Wilson's "White Heat of Technology" era, slum clearance and the then new development of what we now call 1960s planning blight, most of the general public wanted the past firmly put "in the past" and welcomed the new diesels as part of the collective "bright new future".

That's my take on it anyhow

[Robin Summerhill]

Strange how perceptions change over the years - most people would be queuing up for a trip to Paddington behind a Castle or a King nowadays. But in the early 60s and set against Harold Wilson's "White Heat of Technology" era, slum clearance and the then new development of what we now call 1960s planning blight, most of the general public wanted the past firmly put "in the past" and welcomed the new diesels as part of the collective "bright new future".

That's my take on it anyhow

Absolutely spot on.

During the early 1970s whilst at Bath Road I was having a chat with my Chief Clerk, Ken Hunter, and mentioned in passing in conversation that I thought the railway could get a good deal of traffic, from American tourists and the like, by running steam hauled services from the (then) under-used terminus at Marylebone via Banbury and Leamington to Stratford on Avon.

I was surprised at his reply which I can remember verbatim to this day:

"Steam is yesterday's form of traction. These days we've got a modern railway to run"

I wonder which one of us was proved right in the long term?

And does anybody else remember what the fireman of 45110 had to say as it reversed out of Lime Street after working the 15 Guinea Special on 11th August 1968? The sound recording appears on many a commercially available product of the day's run:-

"No more dirty hands"

[trafalgar45682]

Robin Summerhill wrote :

Perhaps 4920 was on loan to Taunton, or perhaps both Patrick and I are suffering from long term memory loss? Perhaps somebody like oldchappie can add something to this conundrum?

There appears to be no official reallocation of 4920 from Laira to Taunton. It is officially shown as being reallocated to 82B in the seven week period to June 22 (although by that date it had moved to 82E). In the May 1964 RO a corresponde
nt has written "The last two steam engines allocated to Laira, 4920/78, have now moved to Taunton. This leaves only the condemned 1363 ...." It may be that both were officially moved to 83B and then quickly on to 82B and 83C and the first reallocation did not show up in the long reallocation period of seven weeks.

[Robin Summerhill]

Robin Summerhill wrote :

Perhaps 4920 was on loan to Taunton, or perhaps both Patrick and I are suffering from long term memory loss? Perhaps somebody like oldchappie can add something to this conundrum?

There appears to be no official reallocation of 4920 from Laira to Taunton. It is officially shown as being reallocated to 82B in the seven week period to June 22 (although by that date it had moved to 82E). In the May 1964 RO a correspondent has written "The last two steam engines allocated to Laira, 4920/78, have now moved to Taunton. This leaves only the condemned 1363 ...." It may be that both were officially moved to 83B and then quickly on to 82B and 83C and the first reallocation did not show up in the long reallocation period of seven weeks.

As somebody who has studied long into the night trying to get to the bottom of reallocations, this doesn't surprise me in the least. Those of us who have studied these things know to their detriment (of sleep ) that Western Region allocation records were (there's a technical term for it - what was it now? - oh yes ....) crap.

There was no official record of 4920 leaving Newton Abott and, indeed, certain other databases that I have seen show it as still being allocated to 83A for almost two years after the depot closed to steam in September 1962! This only goes to highlight the importance of checking your data before you publish it (but I would say that, wouldn't I )

Nevertheless, and as the RO correspondent in May 1964 points out, it did indeed move to Laira after the closure to steam of 83A, and the next time it appears on any official lists is its transfer to 82B in May/ June 1964.

May 1964 was of course significant because it marked the end of steam on the ex-GW lines west of Bristol. However, and this comes back to my post late last night, what exactly did Laira want a pair of Halls for up until May 1964, and what would it have done with them?

Given the accuracy and reliabilty of WR allocation lists from that period, it is certainly possible that the engine was "officially" transferred to Taunton and then quickly on to Bristol when that depot too closed to steam, and that transfer was not recorded. It is also possible that Laira didn't actually need it right up until the end, and a "loan" took place to 83B that was never recorded. If it was indeed "officially" reallocated twice in the 7-week period ending 22/6/64, both allocations should have appeared in the records and, given the fact that we are talking WR records here, the fact that they don't would come as no surprise to me

Unfortunately we shall probably never find out the whole truth. And in case there are any "youngsters" out there who are mildly amused by the antics described above, I would also add that the first allocations of HSTs to the WR in 1976 also went unrecorded!!

[Robin Summerhill]

There appears to be no official reallocation of 4920 from Laira to Taunton. It is officially shown as being reallocated to 82B in the seven week period to June 22 (although by that date it had moved to 82E). In the May 1964 RO a correspondent has written "The last two steam engines allocated to Laira, 4920/78, have now moved to Taunton. This leaves only the condemned 1363 ...." It may be that both were officially moved to 83B and then quickly on to 82B and 83C and the first reallocation did not show up in the long reallocation period of seven weeks.

May 1964 was of course significant because it marked the end of steam on the ex-GW lines west of Bristol. However, and this comes back to my post late last night, what exactly did Laira want a pair of Halls for up until May 1964, and what would it have done with them?

Just another point on this (and here I am back in the same mindset as I was when I compiled my Steam Allocations database!) the allocation period we are talking about was the seven weeks ending 22nd June 1964.

The start of that 7-week period would therefore have been 5th May 1964, which was the final week of steam west of Bristol. 5th May 1964 was a Tuesday, and on Saturday 9th May Castle 7029 ran a "farewell to steam" special down from Paddington to Plymouth (well, technically down from Westbury because classmate 4079 failed there, but thats another story).

Both Taunton and Laira closed to steam on the weekend of the 9th. Therefore, even if there was a transfer of 4920 to Taunton in that allocation period that hadn't been recorded, it would only have been for a matter of days before the engine was transferred again to 82B. And even if it was allocated to 83B for just a few days, that wouldn't explain both Patrick and I having a "gut feeling" that it was a Taunton engine. People don't get "gut feelings" that stay with them for 47 years from an allocation that lasted just a few days!!

Furthermore, in those pre-computer days, if it was mentioned in the Railway Observer of May 1964 that both Halls had left Laira, the likelihood is that this information was at least a couple of months old before it appeared in print (it took longer to get things out in those days than it is now with computer publishing software!)

My money is therefore now on 4920 actually leaving Laira for Taunton some time before May 1964, probably on loan or one of the WR's unrecorded transfers.

[trafalgar45682]

Here are a couple of pictures of 4920 Dumbleton Hall when she definitely was allocated to Laira. She is working on the later to be preserved line to Kingswear - a line that she would work on in preservation. She is still in Devon on the South Devon Railway.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolste ... hotostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolste ... hotostream

and one of her at Barry awaiting the call

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolste ... hotostream

[buxton4472]

Resurrecting this thread after a few months inactivity....

The first 'Peak' diesel I recall on the Midland line was D93. This was used I guess for crew training and the year would have been 1961 - Spring I think. If my memory serves me right it used to pass me on my morning walk to school at Charfield which means that unless it was actually on an ECS special for crew training it was probably in charge of the 7:40-ish ex Gloucester (2B74) or on the Derby - Bristol parcels (3V14) which followed close on its heels. Has anyone got any more reliable knowledge of the diagram?

[trafalgar45682]

According to Trains Illustrated for June 1961, D93 arrived in Bristol on April 10 for crew training. A week later it worked the following diagram : 8.15 ecs Bristol to Gloucester and back, then the 16.20 Bristol to Gloucester local and back with the 5.47 Birmingham to Bristol from Gloucester.

I remember seeing D93 come LE into Bristol from St Philips Marsh where it was stabled while Bath Road Shed was being rebuilt. A few months later it was gone and D33-D42 were allocated to Bath Road. Six of the Jubilees were transferred away from Barrow Road in early September 1961. Hopefully, one of them, 45699 Galatea, may steam this year. With no work to do, I remember this engine working ecs turns into Temple Meads just prior to reallocation.

[buxton4472]

Thank you, trafalgar45682, for that summary. I had obviously got my lines crossed (literally) in thinking I used to see it on the down line after 8:30 a.m. A departure time of 8:15 from Bristol would have placed it at Charfield by about 8:40 which was exactly the time I would have been walking past the station school-bound. Don't recall it on the evening turns though, but TI was obviously better informed than me!

[Tyrwitt]

I recall seeing D93 on the services mentioned above and it was still on the same driver training diagram's when the summer timetable began - Monday 12th June 1961.
This date was when the Sulzers started to replace steam and the first services taken over included the following:-

1N32 0740 Bristol T M - Bradford Foster Sq
1V44 1252 York - Bristol T M
3N01 2015 Bristol T M - Leeds

From the beginning of July, additional services booked for diesel haulage included:-

1N59 1925 Bristol T M - Newcastle
1N70 1020 Bristol T M - Newcastle
1V45 1243 Newcastle - Bristol T M
2B74 1745 Gloucester Eastgate - Bristol T M (I think this loco was off the Newcatle - Cardiff service).
1V39 1015 Bradford Foster Sq - Paignton (Devonian)
1N37 0930 Paignton - Bradford Foster Sq (Devonian)

As the loco's allocated to Bristol had not enter service at the beginning of the summer timetable three Sulzers - (D68/D86 & D90)- were temporarily transferred to the Marsh to cover the Bristol allocated diagrams.

[free2grice]

This may be of interest. The diesel hauled demolition trains between Bath Green Park and Midford. <BJ>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grVi_0x3 ... re=related

[Bill]

I have a few questions from this time if we don't mind.

In Temple Meads on an afternoon, which must be either 1961 or 1962, I can recall there was a down arrival of a two-car GWR railcar set. Can anyone identify which were the cars (there was probably only one such set), where it had come from (Weymouth?), and where it went on to.

Even dimmer in memory is that it may have been a three-car formation with the centre coach. There was only one such, but it doesn't seem to have been allocated anywhere near Bristol.

Likewise I somehow recall one of the Cross-Country dmus with the extra old GW carriage, arriving around the same time - possibly the same working on different days. But these don't seem to have been allocated in the area either.

Anyone have their memory jogged?