Unusual Diesel traction on the old Midland

[50022Anson]

Morning all,

I have been in various discussions with people who have been very interested to find out what in the way of interesting or more unusual diesel traction had passed through Mangotsfield enroute to Bath or Bristol in the 50's/60's ? Think there was reports of a clsas 40 in recent discussions but anyone have any sightings of class 20's/31's/37's etc.. or even a 33 ?! Obviously traction not associated with this area at the time !
i guess diesel traction was frowned upon towards the end of steam so went un-recorded ?

Many thanks

[Ian L Jamieson]

Good Morning 50022 Anson

I lived overlooking the line from 1966 to 1969 and from the best of my memory I only ever saw Classes 45, 46, and 47. 7029 Clun Castle was routed down the Midland main line from Tyseley for an open day at Bath Road but other than that - nothing of interest. The track-lifting train might have had a Hymek on it.

[Robin Summerhill]

It will be interesting to see if anything comes up on this thread, but I've been thinking about the matter for the last couple of hours. Quite prepared to be shot down in flames on this, but here are my thoughts.

With the introduction of diesels also came the concept of "traction knowledge" whereby drivers needed to be trained on the particular class of locomotive they were driving. This did not apply in steam days, and a driver was required to drive anything that the management gave him to drive.

So, for example, (not that I'm aware it ever happened) if a passing V2 on a freight at Thirsk got itself commandeered to take over a Newcastle - Bristol train, and it got through to BTM, a Barrow Road crew would probably be given it to take it back north the next day (probably on the 0840 Sheffield but that's another matter )

This generally did not happen with diesels. It would be no good, for example, somebody purloining a Deltic for the same train, because a point would come (probably at Sheffield or Derby) where there was no driver available to take the train forward who had traction knowledge of Deltics. Or if there was, he probably didn't know the road to Bristol, because drivers who signed for Deltics wouldn't normally be sent that way.

We actually had this situation with Peaks in the early 60s. Nobody west of Bristol had traction knowledge of Peaks at that time so, if a Peak was sent west of Bristol to say Paignton or Plymouth, steps had to be taken to make sure that either it went out and back with the same driver, or the train it was booked to come back on had a driver with traction knowledge of Peaks. Otherwise it would be a case of towing the thing home

[buxton4472]

Think there was reports of a class 40 in recent discussions but anyone have any sightings of class 20's/31's/37's etc.. or even a 33 ?!

I don't know whether they went Mangotsfield way or via Stoke Gifford, but there are two photos of class 40's on a web page of mine at Charfield...

http://s279723315.websitehome.co.uk/rail/charfield.php

I never saw any class 20's south of Gloucester, and only the very occasional class 37 (D6924 down L/E sticks in my memory - 1965-ish? And it may well have travelled Stoke Gifford way to Bath Road (unless it was going on to S Wales via the Tunnel). But - hey - remember the PWM 0-6-0 diesel shunters? PWM654 was an occasional visitor on Sundays when engineers had possession and would have visited Mangotsfield as well, I'm fairly sure. The D63XX series were sometimes used on engineers/ballast trains out Charfield way so could have found their way to Mangotsfield as well. 'Westerns' were very rare in the 60's but one (D1036) brought the Royal Train to Yate (which way to Yate I do not know) and then ran round its train there before heading back to Yate. Anyone have a date for this working? - must have been early 60's. There are photos of it at Charfield on above web page! Did the Brush 'Falcon' or 'Lion' ever come up the Midland? I remember waiting expectantly for one of them some time in the early 60's as it was rumoured to be working 1N70 Bristol - Newcastle but when it turned up it was a class 46! Another class I never ever saw was the class 44 Peaks although surely they must have worked through on a freight at some point in time.

[Robin Summerhill]

Further to my earlier post, as Buxton4472 has identified, the mainstay of motive power for the ex-MR line in early days of diesels were the Peaks, and slightly later the 47s. When the Peaks were initially allocated to Bristol they were nominally Barrow Road engines (having replaced most of 82E's Jubilees) that were kept, for obvious reasons, at the new Bath Road diesel depot, and Barrow Road men picked them up from there. This arrangement didn't last particularly long.

WR hydraulics would not normally have been used on MR line ordinary passenger trains (ie on the north east-south west service) once again for reasons of traction knowledge. A driver, for example, couldn't have been relieved at Derby by a driver from there or north thereof with traction knowledge of Warships, because there weren't any drivers with such knowedge that far north (or indeed any means of maintaining them up there if they failed).

You would see WR hydraulics on the line, however, on such workings as Severn Tunnel diversions. I personally recall seeing a Warship at the head of a train one Sunday morning coming out of Staple Hill tunnel and, it being a Sunday, I would have expected that to be a Severn Tunnel diversion. Hymeks certainly worked the Bath Green Park locals from time to time and, although I don't recall ever seeing one, I can't think of any reason why the NBL type 2s (D63XX) shouldn't have gone that way as well. Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised to hear of Hymeks or the D63xx class on trip freights at Westerliegh, but once again I never saw one.

I too was intrigued when I saw the photograph of the class 40 at Charfield. No drivers in Bristol had traction knowledge of these units, so I can only presume that similar arrangements applied to those in sending Peaks to Plymouth (ie. the driver bringing it down would be taking it back up again).

Class 33s would have been unlikely, once again because of the traction knowledge issue. They were SR engines and Bristol men didn't have traction knowledge of them, and no SR crews had turns up the ex-MR main line. That said, there was a time when Salisbury men had turns to Severn Tunnel Junction on freights and, if that still applied in the 60s, and they were using the 33s on the job, and the Severn Tunnel was closed, there is a possibility (remote through having to fulfil all those criteria!) that one might have got to STJ via Gloucester. They were certainly seen very ocasionally in Bristol (a couple of photographs of mine have been attached to a thread on here showing one with a 4TC unit at BTM in 1971), but once again these would have been out-and-home workings by SR crews.

The class 44s had their carriage heating equipment removed after the introduction of the 45s and 46s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_44), and from that point on were engaged on freight work at Toton. I certainly never saw any very far away from the East Midlands back in the 60s, but I suppose its is possible that they may have got to Bristol on passenger trains prior to the introduction of the main Peak classes.

[Pines Alan]

I can confirm that Peaks, Brush Type 4s, Westerns, and the odd Warship worked local trains between Bristol TM and Bath Green Park from time to time. Apparently there is a photo taken at Mangotsfield showing a D95xx on a local passenger but I have so far been able to trace it - can anyone help please?

Various classes of DMU also worked to and from Green Park, superseding the GW railcars.

Two railtours worked by dmus worked via Bath onto the S&D.

A "Met-Cam" formation worked Birmingham to Bath Green Park and back on a last day trip 6/3/66 to connect with a railtour Bath to Bournemouth and return.

Post closure to passengers, the above diesel classes worked to and from Bath Midland Bridge Road; photos exist of D95xx on goods trains - one is in "The Western since 1948" and another in "BritainÆs Railways in Colour
- BR Diesels in the 1960s and 1970s". I have a photo of a D63xx on a ballast recovery train after the line was singled. A recently discovered photo passed to me depicts D7510 at Midland Bridge and is believed to be the last coal empties out of Bath in May 1971 - the only photo I have ever seen of this type on the line.

Class 08 D3517 was involved in track lifting operations after the line closed completely.

I will try and find out a little more about Class 40s when time permits.

Regards

[50022Anson]

Many thanks for all your insights, I had wondered, considering I pound up and down Fishponds bank on the bike, whether a clase 37 would have growled over the top considering there would have been many based in South Wales at the time although assigned to the Cardiff Valleys ? Again its down to route knowledge on that particular class....

[Pines Alan]

I have found two published references to Class 40s

Modern Railways September 1966 - D335 photographed running into BTM captioned as a return Weston-Super-Mare to Coventry excursion. I have a recollection that Midland (Saltley) men had road knowledge to WSM for this sort of work so would not have needed route conductors; whether this train was routed via Mangotsfield or Stoke Gifford I do not know - perhaps another contibutor might be able to confirm if Saltley knew the Stoke Gifford route.

Trains Illustrated March 1961 - D253 of York was seen at Cheltenham on the 12.48 York to Bristol. Again, no definite knowledge that it passed Mangotsfield as it is possible that it could have been removed at Gloucester. The TI item goes on to refer that this was in connection with trials of these locos on the NE-SW route.

Sorry it's a bit vague; I am rather short of time at present but if I discover anything further I will post it in due course; I am sure there were more instances of Class 40s to Bristol than these two - I saw a couple myself in the 70s after the Mangotsfield route closed.

I have seen no evidence that Class 37s (or 20/31) would have worked via Mangotsfield but who knows what future researches will turn up.

Regards

[Pines Alan]

Sorry - forgot to include the dates on my previous post:
D335 - 4 June 1966;
D253 - 9 January 1961.

Regards

[Robin Summerhill]

I have seen no evidence that Class 37s (or 20/31) would have worked via Mangotsfield but who knows what future researches will turn up.

Regards

If I remember correctly, the class 31s were drafted into Bristol to replace the Hymeks in the early 70s, having been made redundant elsewhere, and this was after the MR line had closed between Bristol and Yate.

So I have little doubt that they were seen passing Charfield in those later years, but not going thropugh Staple Hill tunnel

[buxton4472]

Up to end of 1968 (after which I took little notice) I only recorded the following classes as having worked the Midland line, albeit north of Yate :-

Westerns (rare)
Warships (whenever the ST was closed on winter Sundays the up and down Plymouth/Liverpool workings were Warship-hauled, plus some parcels trains)
D63XX (on the Charfield 'pickup' trip and on ballast trains)
Hymeks (fairly common and a regular on the morning Hereford - Bristol 2B24 from 4.1.65 plus some 'short-haul' freights)
D95xx (occasional - enginers' trains etc)

Classes 45, 46, 47 (ad nauseam)
Classes 25 and 40 (rare visitors on football specials, excursions, etc originating from LMR Western Lines)
Class 37 - rare

By end 1966 all freights seemed to be in the hands of classes 45/46/47 plus the odd Hymek. The overall rapid decline in rail-borne freight (esp when natural gas supplanted town-gas circa 1970, the manufacture of which consumed large tonnages of Midlands coal) meant that freight workings on the Midland route (which outnumbered passenger trains during the early 60's) were decimated.

[free2grice]

This may be of interest. The diesel hauled demolition trains of the Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway.
As a young lad I was given a cab ride from Midsomer Norton to Shepton Mallet and return. The motive power on that occasion was a class 35 Hymek. <BJ>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grVi_0x3 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsuBIM9E ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WSRT29_ ... re=related

[Robin Summerhill]

Did the Brush 'Falcon' or 'Lion' ever come up the Midland?

The Falcon was allocated to 82A for some time in the 70s, so in theory at least it might have run up the Midland line. More details on the locomotive here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_53

However, much of what it says on Wikipedia does not accord with my recollections. As I recall it was unavailable for traffic for much of the time (or, in layman's terms, it wouldn't go ) and it was more of a liability at the depot than an asset. Bath Road were glad to be rid of it.

[buxton4472]

As I recall it was unavailable for traffic for much of the time (or, in layman's terms, it wouldn't go

Ah, so had it ventured forth on the Midland line the chances are that it would have failed on the long drag somewhere before Fishponds! I think you meant to say the 60s rather than the 70s - I do have a record of having seen it at Bristol TM on 24 Aug 1965 on 1A22 just before I took a Midland-line train to B'ham (behind D167 on 1E67). As a slight aside, passing Barrow Rd I saw 6921, 6924, 6967, 7909, 7925, 48530, 92238, 70045 on shed, but by then many local class '9' trips were in the hands of Hymeks and NBL Type2s, because D7077 was on the Charfield tripper seen as we passed Yate.

[Robin Summerhill]

I think you meant to say the 60s rather than the 70s -

Perhaps I should have said "60s and 70s" but I was thinking mainly about the time that I was at Bath Road from 1971 to 1976, when I knew the blokes who were charged with maintaining the thing, and also the senior managers who had to answer to their senior managers when it was out of traffic. Which, as I recall, was more often than it was available for traffic