Return of 82E 4F 43924

[worthvalleyfitter]

After a long and expensive overhaul 43924 has returned to traffic at the KWVR last Saturday 2nd July 2011, as coincidentally filmed by "Penny Steam" on You Tube.

I couldn't help noticing that "Trafalgar" has nobly defended her honour in the face of criticism of her steaming by a former junior fireman correspondent of yours at Barrow Road Shed.

Whilst the latter may of course be correct in her last days, I have the RCTS Traffic Survey of 7th August 1954 which sees her double heading with another 4F on 11 bogies from Duddeston Junction to Bristol before returning just 3 hrs later on 9 all the way to Derby. She can't have been "The Shed HAck" then then.

We gave her a petticoat pipe in the 70's which enhanced steaming to the extent that author Terry Essery who fired the class at Saltley, and still keeps his hand in at Cheddleton, said she was the best steaming 4F that he had been on.

The old girl looks the part and still carries some of the bumps and bruises that she gained in her 45 yrs of life on "The big railway" . She lacks the comfy seats and other comforts of the later classes but from what I have seen of the photos on you site, and FlickR looks to represent the Midland/LMS scene of your lovely City rather well.

Any pictures or anecdotes of her time with you will be greatly appreciated and if you are around the KWVR, don't forget to look her up.

Regards to all.

[Robin Summerhill]

I couldn't help noticing that "Trafalgar" has nobly defended her honour in the face of criticism of her steaming by a former junior fireman correspondent of yours at Barrow Road Shed.

I am the guilty party here, but I was not the juniour fireman (I was no more than a train spotter 1962-63 and railway enthusiast 1963-69 until I joined the railway in 1969 and had the enthusiasm knocked out of me!). My ex-junior fireman friend can be found holding sway at the "Two Pigs" in Corsham most nights (as can I from 2145 to 2230!)

His gripe is not specifically with 43924. but with Fowler engines in general. He tells some interesting stories of trying to get up Fishponds bank with 12 on behind an unrebuilt "Patriot" with 110lb in the boiler

In fact, thinking more about the matter of Fowler engines in general and steaming capability, there was also the saga of the Lickey banker 0-10-0 "Big Bertha" being tried on Toton - Brent coal trains in the 30s. The fact that she went back to Bromsgrove and the design was not used for the heavy traffic on the Midland main line says something surely? (Like "OK for 2.5 miles at full power, but only OK for 2.5 miles at full power" perhaps? )

Then of course there were the "Austin Sevens," the 0-8-0 version of the 4F, that were originally intended (amongst other things) to replace the LNW 0-8-0 G2s. Does anybody remember which class outlived the other? So do I!

All that said, it is an unfortuate fact that 43924 was well known as a poor steamer at Barrow Road and this was the reason it spent much of its later life at Barrow Road as banker.

Whilst the latter may of course be correct in her last days, I have the RCTS Traffic Survey of 7th August 1954 which sees her double heading with another 4F on 11 bogies from Duddeston Junction to Bristol before returning just 3 hrs later on 9 all the way to Derby. She can't have been "The Shed Hack" then then.

But always remember that the 4Fs were often pressed into passenger service (the S&D on summer Saturdays being a particular case in point). The fact that she got to Derby and back doesn't necessarily mean that the crew had an easy time!

We gave her a petticoat pipe in the 70's which enhanced steaming to the extent that author Terry Essery who fired the class at Saltley, and still keeps his hand in at Cheddleton, said she was the best steaming 4F that he had been on.

The old girl looks the part ....

All very good news - keep up the good work

[tonyperks]

so Is a peticoat an official chopper, to improve the blast?

[worthvalleyfitter]

so Is a peticoat an official chopper, to improve the blast?

More than that, it's the flared internal downward extension of the chimney forming a venturi which improves the draughting. a Jimmy or chopper split the blast giving a greater area of exhaust in contact with the smokebox gases but at a cost of increased back pressure. If you refer to the recent LMS Loco Profiles book by David Hunt and others re the 4Fs it refers to a 4F which was used to evaluate the Swirlyflo tubes used in steam heat generators to counter the increased drag of the gas retarders, the loco was redraughted with a chimney choke sililar to BR standard 4s and a petticoat pipe. Another with plain tubes was also done as a control. The boiler output on the latter was increased by about 1/3rd! Although the drawing shows that the mod was to be fitted to 4Fs at overhaul it didn't happen though some gained BR standard chimneys when their old ones wore out.

[worthvalleyfitter]

I am the guilty party here, but I was not the juniour fireman (I was no more than a train spotter 1962-63 and railway enthusiast 1963-69 until I joined the railway in 1969 and had the enthusiasm knocked out of me!). My ex-junior fireman friend can be found holding sway at the "Two Pigs" in Corsham most nights (as can I from 2145 to 2230!)

All that said, it is an unfortuate fact that 43924 was well known as a poor steamer at Barrow Road and this was the reason it spent much of its later life at Barrow Road as banker.

Fair do's I'm sure. Her best days were at Gloucester Barnwood and she was probably rather tired by the time she reached 82E. Having driven her pre overhaul in 1986 pulling 10 and a slithering Bulleid up our line in the rain with gradients of 1 in 60ish I can confirm that she wasn't lacking for steam or water then!

Anyway reminiscing is all good stuff- The lads here are only being partisan in the face of all the guff we get from LNE and GW types but we have no misconceptions that the 4Fs were far from perfect and could be a real challenge to those landed with them. That said, if you spoke to a Skipton man he would say different!

AS to Big Bertha, I think the problem about being used elsewhere might have stemmed from the complex steam passage arrangement whereby the left set of valves fed LHS and RH inner via cross ports, and the RHS vice versa. Alright perhaps on the slog up the Lickey but making it constipated at higher speeds? It might also have been a bit rigid for the loops and yards. Dunno, but what a monster!

Please pass on my best wishes to your drinking partner. Your evenings must very much resemble ours!

[worthvalleyfitter]

["]
I am the guilty party here, but I was not the juniour fireman (I was no more than a train spotter 1962-63 and railway enthusiast 1963-69 until I joined the railway in 1969 and had the enthusiasm knocked out of me!). My ex-junior fireman friend can be found holding sway at the "Two Pigs" in Corsham most nights (as can I from 2145 to 2230!)

Sorry Robin, re my last message. Haven't got the hang of this "quote" thing so m,y reply was mixed up with your message.

Hope you got the gist anyway.

Ralph

[Robin Summerhill]

Here you are - quotes sorted for you

I am the guilty party here, but I was not the juniour fireman (I was no more than a train spotter 1962-63 and railway enthusiast 1963-69 until I joined the railway in 1969 and had the enthusiasm knocked out of me!). My ex-junior fireman friend can be found holding sway at the "Two Pigs" in Corsham most nights (as can I from 2145 to 2230!)

All that said, it is an unfortuate fact that 43924 was well known as a poor steamer at Barrow Road and this was the reason it spent much of its later life at Barrow Road as banker.

Fair do's I'm sure. Her best days were at Gloucester Barnwood and she was probably rather tired by the time she reached 82E. Having driven her pre overhaul in 1986 pulling 10 and a slithering Bulleid up our line in the rain with gradients of 1 in 60ish I can confirm that she wasn't lacking for steam or water then!

Anyway reminiscing is all good stuff- The lads here are only being partisan in the face of all the guff we get from LNE and GW types but we have no misconceptions that the 4Fs were far from perfect and could be a real challenge to those landed with them. That said, if you spoke to a Skipton man he would say different!

AS to Big Bertha, I think the problem about being used elsewhere might have stemmed from the complex steam passage arrangement whereby the left set of valves fed LHS and RH inner via cross ports, and the RHS vice versa. Alright perhaps on the slog up the Lickey but making it constipated at higher speeds? It might also have been a bit rigid for the loops and yards. Dunno, but what a monster!

Please pass on my best wishes to your drinking partner. Your evenings must very much resemble ours!

Of course, there is always another possible explanation. If he couldn't get enough steam out of a 4F, and if he had trouble maintaining steam pressure up Fishponds bank with 12 hanging behind an unrebuilt Patriot, his skills at firing these things may have left something to be desired!

I might introduce that possibility into the conversation one nght when he's in a good mood

[trafalgar45682]

It was great to see some photo's of 43924 on Flickr last weekend, working trains on the Worth Valley.

You and your team have done a fantastic job, Ralph, and she looks great in final BR state - although she was never as pristine as that in her Barrow Road days !

I took photo's of most of the other 4F's at the shed, but not unfortunately 43924.

43924 did well to last as long as she did. It is true that she was very rarely rostered for the ecs turns from Temple Meads to Barrow Road, it was generally 44135 and 44569, both of which were withdrawn before her. She did do banking duties, but was also employed on other trip workings at Fishponds, Yate, Thornbury. Most of these disappeared with the closure of Westerleigh Yard in October 1964, but she was kept on by the shed, sometimes engaged on former Bath Road Trip workings, normally rostered to Pannier Tanks. As mentioned in a previous post, when put into store on May 17, 1965, she was the last midland engine survivor at the shed. Three weeks earlier she had been joined on Barrow Road Shed by 45699 on its way to Barry scrapyard, the last recorded visit of a Bristol Jubilee to its home shed. Hopefully 45699 will be returned to steam soon.

Other engines allocated to Barrow Road at some time in the sixties to survive into preservation are 3802, 4920, 6984, 6990, 44422, 45690, 48431(also on the Worth Valley), 51218 and 80064.

Quite a good tally for a shed that closed in November 1965.

[Robin Summerhill]

Quite a good tally for a shed that closed in November 1965.

Although of course it was one of those accidents of history for which we must be grateful, as many of them went to, and were resued from, Barry scrapyard.

If only Dai Woodhams had bought a couple of Counties, a Grange or two and perhaps an unrebuilt Patriot, the preservation movement would have been saved a lot of new build!

[worthvalleyfitter]

Great reply Robin, I'd love to see your friend's face when you put that one to him. You might point out that he must have been putting too much rock down the front as Skipton men say that was one way guaranteed to send a 4F off the boil.

Make sure that he has got the round in first though!

Thanks for your kind remarks Pat. You must come over and see us at the shed sometime. I'm there Tuesdays to Fridays 07.30 to 18.00 and usually Saturdays.

Regards
Ralph

[Robin Summerhill]

Of course, there is always another possible explanation. If he couldn't get enough steam out of a 4F, and if he had trouble maintaining steam pressure up Fishponds bank with 12 hanging behind an unrebuilt Patriot, his skills at firing these things may have left something to be desired!

I might introduce that possibility into the conversation one nght when he's in a good mood

Great reply Robin, I'd love to see your friend's face when you put that one to him. You might point out that he must have been putting too much rock down the front as Skipton men say that was one way guaranteed to send a 4F off the boil.

I had an interesting conversation last night - we are still on speaking terms The reply went something on the lines of:

"Footplate work is team work. If your driver thought you weren't up to scratch or not doing things properly, he'd soon bloody tell you. When he was trying to drag an express up to Fishponds with a cold unrebuilt Patriot, or trying to catch the train he was supposed to be banking up there with a 4F, both through lack of steam, he knew exactly what problems you were having because he'd had the same problems himself when he was a fireman."

Perhaps "Skipton men" had some superhuman powers? Could be the fresh mountain air up there at the root of it? (There's not much "fresh mountain air" at Fishponds, or even Mangotsfield, let alone at Kingswood Junction )

[worthvalleyfitter]

I had an interesting conversation last night - we are still on speaking terms Perhaps "Skipton men" had some superhuman powers? Could be the fresh mountain air up there at the root of it? (There's not much "fresh mountain air" at Fishponds, or even Mangotsfield, let alone at Kingswood Junction )

Skipton men did say that if you got a Stourton (Leeds) 4F you were sure of a good trip. Actually I quite agree with your good friend, and I've read Stephen Mourton's book compiling old Loco Casualty reports from Glucester Barnwood. 45519 Lady Godiva receives a mention for steaming problems as does 45506 Royal Pioneer Corps. There may have been some contributory issues from the quality of the coal being obtained at the time.

Yesterday we put the new petticoat pipe in 43924, the old one which we fitted in the 70's having rotted somewhat. We shal see how this one performs!

My daughter lives at Filton and one of these days, a a 4F colleague and I are going to come down for a couple of days to look at where the old shed was and walk the line where it's a footpath / cycleway. If it is feasible perhaps we can buy your pal a beer on behalf of the old girl for giving him a wet shirt!
In the meantime, best wishes.
Ralph

[Robin Summerhill]

There may have been some contributory issues from the quality of the coal being obtained at the time.

This matter came up in a supplementary conversation on Saturday night.

LMS and Midland engines were designed to operate well on Yorkshire coal. In places like Skipton and Stourton Junction and Holbeck and Normanton they may well have been able to get their mits on some.

By the time my friend transferred to Barrow Road (he had previously been at Swindon and Bath Green Park) the Western region was making do with a mixture of cement and dust for the majority of its workings, otherwise know as "briquettes" or "ovoids."

Ovoids had a nasty habit of rolling out of the tender onto the footplate where, in truth, they did about as much good as chucking them onto the fire. Something not totally unlike to trying to run your car on paraffin rather than 4-star. In my trainspotting days, when "cabbing" engines at Temple Meads, my youngster's vocabulary was extended immensely by overhearing firemen's expletives as they struggled to stop the things rolling around the cab, rolling off the shovel, and somehow getting enough through the firehole door to get the needle round far enough to make trying to start a train worthwhile.

In the latter days of steam in this neck of the woods it might not have been a bad idea to convert 'em all to clockwork, but no doubt the political masters of the day would have objected to paying for the keys ...

[trafalgar45682]

Like the other 4F's at Barrow Road, 43924 found herself busy at Bristol during Summer 1964.

Here are her turns for the month of July 1964

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolste ... 5402030561

[Robin Summerhill]

My daughter lives at Filton and one of these days, a a 4F colleague and I are going to come down for a couple of days to look at where the old shed was and walk the line where it's a footpath / cycleway.

You'd be hard pressed to try to establish where 22A/ 82E used to be the way things have changed in Barton Hill:

The viaduct from which you gained official access to the shed via the steps went straight on from here:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll= ... .6,,0,5.79

The point where us kids used to nip over the back wall in Days Road is approximately here:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll= ... 54,,0,1.11

The shed itself is probably under this lot somewhere (or try panning south)

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll= ... 57,,0,5.03

But don't let me put you off - the cycle track runs all the way from Lawrence Hill junction to Brassmill Lane Bath. Kingswood Junction is unrecognisable, Fishponds station is gone, there is enough of Staple Hill and Mangotsfield stations left to recognise them, Warmley is almost complete, and then of course you get to the Avon Valley Railway so Oldland Common and Bitton stations are both in one piece.

If you get as far as Bitton, would you like to drop in to see the owners of 44123 and let them know how restoration is done?