Bristol-Mangotsfield line

[Matt Thomas]

I think that in those days perhaps we put up with these things far more than we do these days.

I'm sure this is right; we are all less tolerant of poor service nowadays.

I can remember trains being very, very late when I was trainspotting at Mangotsfield in the fifties, sometimes by as much as two hours.

And when I was a nipper, a kindly porter shared his lunch with me, when my mother and I were waiting, so it seemed, for crack of doom, owing to the lateness of our train to the North.

One thing that stands out from the old days is the inconvenience of having to detrain for shunting.

This was routine at Charfield for south bound stoppers; if there was an express behind, everyone had to pile out and the train was reversed into the down siding. When the "fast" had roared past, everyone got on again.

If you were on an excursion from Weston down the S&D (I think these ran until about 1962) the same thing happened; no sooner had you settled down than you had to get off again, while the very cumbersome procedure of transferring the coaches to the branch via the Highbridge goods yard was carried out, after which you could resume your interrupted journey.

And don't get me started, as they say, about Templecombe's strange rites, immortalised by Gilbert Thomas. No way would people put up with this degree of hassle nowadays.

Matt

[Matt Thomas]

And don't get me started, as they say, about Templecombe's strange rites

Just wondered what happened at Dorchester South; I believe eastbound trains had to reverse into the platform here as well before the station was rebuilt in 1970.

But was a pilot engine mandatory in steam days, as at Templecombe - can anyone remember?

[Robin Summerhill]

And don't get me started, as they say, about Templecombe's strange rites

Just wondered what happened at Dorchester South; I believe eastbound trains had to reverse into the platform here as well before the station was rebuilt in 1970.

But was a pilot engine mandatory in steam days, as at Templecombe - can anyone remember?

No pilot was used as far as I recall from the (very) few occasions I went that way in steam days. The train simply stopped and set back into the platform. One reason for the difference may have been that the reverse was on a straight bit of road and not on a tight curve as at Templecombe.

One thought about Templecombe that crossed my mind over the last couple of days was that, with all the finance available for railway infrastructure projects in the 1930s, it is unfortunate that somebody didn't think of rebuilding Templecombe Lower as a double track station and linking it to the LSW station. Something on the lines of Tamworth.

[Matt Thomas]

(backing up my argument that the mail train used to turn anti-clockwise).



Matt

Following on from the debate on this crucial point, do any submitters have information on the mail's itinerary between Mangotsfield, where it picked up a van from the 3.40 Bournemouth, and Newcastle?

Were there any lineside TPO collection points along its route? And is there a national online map of these facililities, which ceased in the sixties, I believe (if there isn't, there should be). Can anyone help?

(edited by me, yet again, 9.45 p.m.Saturday)

[Robin Summerhill]

do any submitters have information on the mail's itinerary between Mangotsfield, where it picked up a van from the 3.40 Bournemouth, and Newcastle?

In 1965, at the end of the S&D service (the mail didn't run during the "emergency service" period), the Newcastle stopped at Gloucester, Cheltenham, Brum (52 minutes), Tamworth, Burton, Derby, Sheffield, York, Darlington and Durham.

Although in those days the 1540 ex-Bournemouth was booked a 10-minute stop at Mangotsfield, and the Mail a 5-minute stop, I never saw any vans being transferred. Mail and other parcels (manually) yes, vans no.

In fact, thinking about this again an hour after posting this (added in case the "edited" sentence appears at the bottom!) the Bournemouth was booked to stop 1920-1930, and the mail 1936-1941. As there was no station pilot at Mangotsfield at that time of day in later years, transferring a van would not have been possible.

The 1922 Bradshaw shows the same stops as above with a 75 minute wait at Brum, plus additonal stops at Chesterfield, Pontefract (conditional), Northallerton and Ferryhill.

Were there any lineside TPO collection points along its route?

None that I know of but, given the number and location of the stops, there seems little need for any

And is there a national online map of these facililities, which ceased in the sixties, I believe (if there isn't, there should be).

No idea. Over to others

[Matt Thomas]

Although in those days the 1540 ex-Bournemouth was booked a 10-minute stop at Mangotsfield, and the Mail a 5-minute stop, I never saw any vans being transferred. Mail and other parcels (manually) yes, vans no..

A van was certainly transferred in the years before closure; an engine was sent up from Barrow Road specifically for this duty. If memory serves me correctly, it was usually either a "Jinty" or a pannier tank.

As there was no station pilot at Mangotsfield at that time of day in later years, transferring a van would not have been possible.

Was there a station pilot "resident" at Mangotsfield at one time?

[Robin Summerhill]

Although in those days the 1540 ex-Bournemouth was booked a 10-minute stop at Mangotsfield, and the Mail a 5-minute stop, I never saw any vans being transferred. Mail and other parcels (manually) yes, vans no..

A van was crtainly transferred in the years before closure; an engine was sent up from Barrow Road specifically for this duty. If memory serves me correctly, it was usually either a "Jinty" or a pannier tank.

As there was no station pilot at Mangotsfield at that time of day in later years, transferring a van would not have been possible.

Was there a station pilot "resident" at Mangotsfield at one time?

Interesting. My comments were made as a result of personal observation at Mangotsfield (but that would have been post-1962) and also the fact that in the working time tables there are sections headed "Shunting Engines" which indicated the days and times that shunters were available at various locations. In my 1959 WTTs there are no entries showing any shunting engines "allocated" to Mangotsfield at any time.

However, after reading Matt's post I thought that, if an engine was sent on a regular basis from Barrow Road to Mangotsfield, it would appear as a movement in the WTT. Even if was not a daily working it would be marked as a "Q" (conditional) service.

So I had another look in the 1959 WTT. Sure enough, there was a light engine movement shown from Barrow Road to Mangotsfield (dep 1838 arr 1851), returning 2045 to 2100, with no indication as to what it was going there for (LE movements in the WTT would often have an explanatory note eg "to work 11.15 Washwood Heath").

That seems conclusive enough proof to me

[Robin Summerhill]

Update on the transfer of a van from the 1540 Bournemouth to the up Mail at Mangotsfield in the 1960s.

After starting the "Winter of 62/63" thread I remembered that, lurking up in the attic, there was a diary I kept in the first four months of 1963. I hadn't looked at it for over 45 years, but a few days ago I went up and dug it out, and I spent two days extracting "sighting" data from it to put into a spreadsheet.

My sightings were normally between the eastern portal of Staple Hill tunnel and Mangotsfield and that diary tells me that, every weeknight, a shunter went up light from Bristol behind the 1830 Gloucester stopper. In those days it was one of the D21xx types that usually worked Avonside, after supplanting the "Pugs."

I'd forgotten all about it

Mind you, which would you be more interested in and what would stick in the memory - Scots, Crabs, B1s, the odd Castle working the Midland main line substituted at Gloucester after a failure, or a diesel-mechanical shunter?

[bristolian]

Update on the transfer of a van from the 1540 Bournemouth to the up Mail at Mangotsfield in the 1960s.

After starting the "Winter of 62/63" thread I remembered that, lurking up in the attic, there was a diary I kept in the first four months of 1963. I hadn't looked at it for over 45 years, but a few days ago I went up and dug it out, and I spent two days extracting "sighting" data from it to put into a spreadsheet.

My sightings were normally between the eastern portal of Staple Hill tunnel and Mangotsfield and that diary tells me that, every weeknight, a shunter went up light from Bristol behind the 1830 Gloucester stopper. In those days it was one of the D21xx types that usually worked Avonside, after supplanting the "Pugs."

I'd forgotten all about it

Mind you, which would you be more interested in and what would stick in the memory - Scots, Crabs, B1s, the odd Castle working the Midland main line substituted at Gloucester after a failure, or a diesel-mechanical shunter?

Hello Robin,

I don't suppose you'd consider making that spreadsheet available?

Very Best Wishes,
Bob.

[Robin Summerhill]

Hello Robin,

I don't suppose you'd consider making that spreadsheet available?

Very Best Wishes,
Bob.

PM off list.

Unfortunately, it isn't possible to copy and paste a table or a spreadsheet into the forum, and I don't fancy the job of copying it all in the old-fashioned way!

[Robin Summerhill]

Hello Robin,

I don't suppose you'd consider making that spreadsheet available?

Very Best Wishes,Bob.

PM off list.

Unfortunately, it isn't possible to copy and paste a table or a spreadsheet into the forum, and I don't fancy the job of copying it all in the old-fashioned way!

But here are a few of the more interesting bits:

2nd Jan - B1 61315 worked the 0730 Gloucester to Bristol stopper

4th Jan - Royal Scot 46149 worked south on the 0730 Gloucester to Bristol stopper and went back north on the 0840 Sheffield on 7th Jan.

25th Jan - 92016 worked the 0730 Gloucester stopper. Unusually the 0840 Sheffield was diesel hauled with Peak D164 - however, the Peak must only have worked as far north as Gloucester, because it was back in Bristol later that morning to work the 1040 Newcastle which was 40 minuites late departing

29th January - Manor 7802 worked the 0730 Gloucester stopper, which suggests that Barnwood depot had borrowed it from Horton Road

The 1149SX/ 1212SO Bristol to Bath was sometimes worked by steam and sometimes by a Peak, which of course would have been a little overpowered for a three coach local train! However, on 3rd April, Jubilee 45674 worked the train.

The down Devonian (Mangotsfield pass approx 1545) could appear with either steam or diesel traction. 15th January 45598, 16th D94, 17th 45690, 28th D20, 30th D22, 31st 45639. My last recorded sighting with steam power was on 12th February with 45675.

1st April - up Devonian (1240 ex-Bristol) double headed by 44983 and 73015.

4th April. The 1215 ex-Newcastle, due through Mangotsfield at about 1845, turned up with Castle 7005 on the sharp end, presumably deputising from Gloucester for a failure.

And although these were the most notable workings, there were of course the regulars - like the S&D 7Fs coming through at least once a day on coal trains for Stapleton Road gas works; Barrow Road's 3 Jubilees (45682/5/90) up and down all the time; steam light engine movements (usually 4Fs, 8Fs or Black 5s) to & from Westerleigh yard etc etc.

We just used to accept this as the way things were

[bristolian]

Blimey!

[Roger]

The early 1960s were indeed great days to spend a day at Temple Meads, or, as I did quite often, Lawrence Hill to spot the workings that avoided Temple Meads. The steam worked expresses climbing towards Fishponds looked and sounded superb from Lawrence Hill station.

[Robin Summerhill]

Blimey!

Well you knew most of that anyway - I sent you the spreadsheet

They were indeed interesting days. Unfortunately its not recorded in that diary (so probably late 1962 thinking about it) but there was one morning when three Scots appeared at TM - 46130 and 46135 were two of them, but I've forgotten which the third was. Probably a Holbeck engine whatever it was, as they were the most common - 46103, 46112 and 46145 put in regular appearances.

I also recall standing by the slight curve mid way between Mangotsfield and Staple Hill tunnel (where Stone Sidings box used to be for any historians, or along Signal Road for any locals (there is an access to the cycleway there now) watching the down Devonian, very late, behind a Jubilee apparently throwing most of its fire out through the chimney. Whether this was a desperate attempt on the part of the driver to make up some of the lost time, or reducing the shed staff's work in cleaning and dropping the fire, is a moot point

Talking about that vantage point in Signal Road, there was a clear view through the tunnel, and we used to challenge each other to accurately identify the class of engine that was coming up before it entered the tunnel. To think that, in those days, I could spot the curved smoke deflectors of a Scot at the other end of that tunnel - these days I can hardly see the bleedin' light at the other end, let alone identify a curved smoke deflector

[bristolian]

Blimey!

Well you knew most of that anyway - I sent you the spreadsheet

They were indeed interesting days. Unfortunately its not recorded in that diary (so probably late 1962 thinking about it) but there was one morning when three Scots appeared at TM - 46130 and 46135 were two of them, but I've forgotten which the third was. Probably a Holbeck engine whatever it was, as they were the most common - 46103, 46112 and 46145 put in regular appearances.

I also recall standing by the slight curve mid way between Mangotsfield and Staple Hill tunnel (where Stone Sidings box used to be for any historians, or along Signal Road for any locals (there is an access to the cycleway there now) watching the down Devonian, very late, behind a Jubilee apparently throwing most of its fire out through the chimney. Whether this was a desperate attempt on the part of the driver to make up some of the lost time, or reducing the shed staff's work in cleaning and dropping the fire, is a moot point

Talking about that vantage point in Signal Road, there was a clear view through the tunnel, and we used to challenge each other to accurately identify the class of engine that was coming up before it entered the tunnel. To think that, in those days, I could spot the curved smoke deflectors of a Scot at the other end of that tunnel - these days I can hardly see the bleedin' light at the other end, let alone identify a curved smoke deflector

Lol Robin, indeed you have done so. Alas, I've- so far - only had a cursory browse...