Location Quiz

[carpetcone]

Jules, I certainly enjoyed the location debate and think a regular spot would be in order .
Is there any chance you could post the furniture factory pictures? Totally off topic I know, but pictures of, presumably Wake & Deans at Yatton, would be interesting to see. I understand that they did transport furniture by rail in the past.
Steve

[Robin Summerhill]

However, for Robin's benefit (and time saving) I shall think long and hard before recklessly posting another "Location Quiz".

Don't hold back because of me

As ever with this type of thing, I shall start off by being determined to ignore it, then get curious, then start the research!

[jules]

Oh dear. Robin is going to hate this. Just received the following message:

I visited Wells today to get an idea of the proposed location of the old photo and ended up even more confused. The Priory Health Centre which still includes the old building that was the workhouse is actually located a good distance down the Glastonbury Road and not Priory Road at all. I may be totally wrong but I understand that the railway followed a line down what is now Strawberry Way and continued into East Somerset Way on the modern map. The present traffic roundabout the end of Priory Rd itself was I believe about the location of the level crossing on the old railway.

If this is the case then it would be impossible for the photo to have included both that level crossing plus the workhouse in the position that it is depicted. For this to happen the level crossing would have to be much further down the Glastonbury Rd which would then place the railway in as I understand the wrong place. I know that this is not much help but I ôbumped intoö a local ôexpertö who was certain that the location in the photo was not Wells. Anything that you and your fellow forum members can do to clarify this would be most appreciated.

Sorry!!

[BristleGWR]

Any chance of putting the photo back on please?

[Robin Summerhill]

Oh dear. Robin is going to hate this. Just received the following message:

I visited Wells today to get an idea of the proposed location of the old photo and ended up even more confused. The Priory Health Centre which still includes the old building that was the workhouse is actually located a good distance down the Glastonbury Road and not Priory Road at all. I may be totally wrong but I understand that the railway followed a line down what is now Strawberry Way and continued into East Somerset Way on the modern map. The present traffic roundabout the end of Priory Rd itself was I believe about the location of the level crossing on the old railway.

If this is the case then it would be impossible for the photo to have included both that level crossing plus the workhouse in the position that it is depicted. For this to happen the level crossing would have to be much further down the Glastonbury Rd which would then place the railway in as I understand the wrong place. I know that this is not much help but I ôbumped intoö a local ôexpertö who was certain that the location in the photo was not Wells. Anything that you and your fellow forum members can do to clarify this would be most appreciated.

Sorry!!

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous posts

The 1903 OS extract here http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html (there is an explanation in an earlier post that tells you how to zoom in to the appropriate area) clearly shows that:

* At the time (presumed from the photo to be during or around the time of WW1) the line crossing Glastonbury Road was single track. The crossing itself appears to carry a single track railway, but the extent of railway land in the area shown on the map suggests that a larger area than simply the crossing itself would have needed to be fenced/gated.

* On that OS extract there is a rank of buildings that stood between the crossing and the workhouse/ infirmary, reasonably close to the railway. These are seen on the photograph in the middle distance. You can tell that there are two distinct building lines involved if you look above and just just slightly left of the guy with the cap seated on the motorcycle - the building that looks more "white" is closer to the camera than the one to its right

* If the photographer had positioned his subjects on the west side of the crossing, and aimed his camera so as just to avoid the S&D station, he would have got those buildings into his shot on the left plus a larger building in the background on the right. That is what we see in the photo

* From more recent photographs, the larger builing's basic components (ie stonework, window shape/ outline, and roofline) bear a remarkable similarity to what is now the Priory Health Centre.

* Nobody on this thread has yet suggested that the shot was taken in Priory Road. I contend it was taken on the level crossing where Priory Road meets Glastonbury Road.

It all seems to "stack up" to me

I suggest that your correspondent looks at the Old Maps website and comes back to us with any further observations!

[jules]

Any chance of putting the photo back on please?

[/quote]

[BristleGWR]

Thanks Jules.

I'm sorry Robin but I'm not convinced that it is Wells (Glastonbury Road).

Looking at the 1903 1:2500 map, I believe Robin is placing the photographer near the triangle at the level crossing just below the 'hotel', and facing south west.
The orientation of the line at this point is around 300 degrees (i.e. running north west to south east). If you look at the shadows, particular the one made by the post in the foreground, then going by the orientation of the line the sun must be further north of the line i.e. much greater than 300 degrees. The sun is also quite high in the sky. Even around the longest day of the year the sun sets in this part of the country at about 310 degrees. Hence I don't think it can be this location.

Ian

[madhattie]

It's only a minor point, but there's a lamp on the crossing gate to warn road traffic when the gate is closed (ie. across the road). The lamp is on the right hand side of the gate. I reckon the photo is somewhere other than the UK.

[Robin Summerhill]

Thanks Jules.

I'm sorry Robin but I'm not convinced that it is Wells (Glastonbury Road).

Looking at the 1903 1:2500 map, I believe Robin is placing the photographer near the triangle at the level crossing just below the 'hotel', and facing south west.
The orientation of the line at this point is around 300 degrees (i.e. running north west to south east). If you look at the shadows, particular the one made by the post in the foreground, then going by the orientation of the line the sun must be further north of the line i.e. much greater than 300 degrees. The sun is also quite high in the sky. Even around the longest day of the year the sun sets in this part of the country at about 310 degrees. Hence I don't think it can be this location.

Ian

Reading this and thinking about it again makes me reconsider too,

I thought about the possibility of it being abroad (as per Pete's thoughts) at the outset and, indeed, I asked She Who Must Be Obeyed to have a look to see if she thought the women's clothing looked to be of English origin (she is of Greek extraction and knows about these things ). She thought it was more likely to be English than not.

Perhaps we need to go back to the drawing board. Glad I didn't actually put any money on it down the bookies

[Robin Summerhill]

It's only a minor point, but there's a lamp on the crossing gate to warn road traffic when the gate is closed (ie. across the road). The lamp is on the right hand side of the gate. I reckon the photo is somewhere other than the UK.

On a wider point about this, are there any WW1 historians around here?

The reason I ask is that all the information on WW1 that has ever come in my direction suggests that having a merry jaunt out on the motorbike with a few of the local women would not have been included in most of the men's war experience

[AndyK]

I'm still inclined to think it's in Britain because to my eyes the architecture seems characteristically English.

Would soldiers serving abroad have British registered motorcycles at their disposal for making jaunts? (I'm assuming they are private rather than military vehicles).

It's perhaps risky making judgements like this, but the ladies look quite respectable - more like wives or sweethearts than good-time girls who would consort with foreign soldiers. If so it's more likely to be in blighty.

I'm wondering if the officer is actually part of the cycling expedition - he hardly seems dressed for it in contrast to the others who are conspicuously well-wrapped. I can't imagine his cap would stay on very long once they got up to speed.

Still, none of that gets us any closer to identifying the place. If we're not getting anywhere, I would suggest posting it to the Prototype Questions section of the railway modelling site RMWeb http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/ . They really relish mystery pictures there and there are some people with an amazing amount of knowledge about obscure locations/

[Robin Summerhill]

I'm still inclined to think it's in Britain because to my eyes the architecture seems characteristically English.

I would agree with this. Holland and Belgium could be remote possibilities, as they have tended to build in terraces that look something like the buildings we see in the background. French architecture is completely different

It's perhaps risky making judgements like this, but the ladies look quite respectable - more like wives or sweethearts than good-time girls who would consort with foreign soldiers. If so it's more likely to be in blighty.

You've written exactly what I thought but decided not to put into print!

Still, none of that gets us any closer to identifying the place. If we're not getting anywhere, I would suggest posting it to the Prototype Questions section of the railway modelling site RMWeb http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/ . They really relish mystery pictures there and there are some people with an amazing amount of knowledge about obscure locations/

Aw ... and I've already spent another hour pouring over my OS 6th and 7th series maps before I went down the pub



Whilst I'm posting, a few more points to take into account:

One of the reasons I thought it was Wells was because there would have been a lot more railway land to fence than simply the gated level crossing itself. What we are looking at is not just a level crossing gate (although it is obviously a level crossing) - the land on which the motorcycles are parked is not the road itself, unless that road takes a very sharp turn to the left immediately after the crossing, which would be not unheard of, but unusual, and may help to identify the location.

Furthermore, the posts in the foreground suggest another boundary of some sort and, as they are effectively blocking the way ahead from the right hand gate (as you look at the photo) then I would suggest that this "gate," if gate it is, is something of a red herring.

Finally, to pick up on Pete's point again (the lamp is on the right hand side therefore it could indicate a continental traffic flow), note the position of that lamp. It is not at 90 degrees to the gate - its is at about 45 degrees. This might suggest that the road (or A road - it could be that the main road goes off to the left of the picture and we can't see it) does indeed come in at a sharp angle and the lamp was positioned there as it would have been the only place (and position) in which it could be seen by oncoming traffic on that road. Nothing perhaps to do with the side of the road that the traffic was driving on.

So, the new line of enquiry. Perhaps we are looking for a level crossing where a side road goes sharply off to the left, whilst on the other side of the crossing there is what appears to be a couple of large buildings in the background that might be "institutional" in nature, and what looks like some sort of ecclesiastical building (perhaps a covered entrance to a churchyard) in front of it and to its left.

I think I know how I'll be spending much of the weekend The weather is forecast to be lousy anyway

[jules]

It certainly seems to be turning into one hell of a challenge! I am feeling sincerely guilty now and can only offer my humblest apologies for ever having the stupidity to post it in the first place!

I am intending to spend an hour or two on Sunday researching S&DJR fence designs from the turn of the century!

[AndyK]

and what looks like some sort of ecclesiastical building (perhaps a covered entrance to a churchyard) in front of it and to its left.

Is that the structure with the steeply sloping roof beneath the big tree on the left? It does look as if it could be what I believe is called a lych gate, but I'm more inclined to interpret it as a stone-built house - perhaps a lodge at the entrance to the grounds. I seem to have seen quite a few houses with that look in the limestone areas of Somerset, indeed it reminds me of some of the station buildings on the Cheddar Valley line.

However I don't think we can assume it is Somerset. I know this is awfully vague but something about it (those pine trees perhaps) seems to hint to me at Dorset or Hampshire.

[Robin Summerhill]

and what looks like some sort of ecclesiastical building (perhaps a covered entrance to a churchyard) in front of it and to its left.

Is that the structure with the steeply sloping roof beneath the big tree on the left?

Yes

Now, call me daft if you like (not just you Andy ) but look closely again at the "level crossing gate" On the other side of the line there is a pedestrian gate, but there appears to be a fixed fence to its right. There does not appear to be a road gate on that side of the line at all. If you look beyond the fencing then the appearance of the ground suggests that it is uneven and doesn't look like a road

The cabling on what we are taking to be the road gate in the foreground (running top right to bottom left) seems to indicate that what we are looking at is a single gate on this side of the line.

Could it be then that the road is crossing the railway at a very oblique angle, and the other gate is out of sight on the left?

Finally, something else that I've just noticed. If you look to the right of the woman to the far right of the shot, there is some angled metal which might be stop blocks. There might be a further clue here.