Locos at Mangotsfield

[Blandford1969]

Hi all,

Wonder if you can help, I am trying to find out whether the LMS twins ever ran down to Bristol?

I am also trying to tie down ex GW locos that ran over the Midland lines. I know that Halls, Granges, 43xx and Castles were seen, but wondered if anyone had any lists at all?

Kind regards

[Robin Summerhill]

My 1959 Working Time Table for the Bristol division is remarkably silent on the matter. All it says about "LMR diesel electric engines" is:-

"LMR diesel electric engines 10000 and 10001 are permitted to work between Reading General and Castle Cary, subject to all service restrictions being observed and to the local prohibitions in respect of 47xx engines and diesel cars"

So no mention of them being allowed on the ex-MR main line.

The next section in the WTT deals with "LMR diesel mechanical locomotives." This says:

LMR diesel mechanical locomotive no 10100 "Fell system" is permitted to work over the main line between Birmingham and Bristol TM via Charfield and between Bristol TM and Bristol West Depot ......

So, given 10100 had explicit clearance to work the line, and 10000 and 10001 didn't, we can fairly safely assume that they didn't get to Bristol

For any youngsters that don't know what the hell we're on about some information here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_D16/1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_10100

There's a few photographs of the Fell diesel about two thirds of the way down this page http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page8.htm

[martin bennett]

I once read that ex-GW engines were rare on the line through Mangotsfield. That does not accord with my recollections. 'The Cornishman' (down) I recall nearly always had a 'Castle' (which looked great with its chocolate & cream BR standard coaches) until about 1960 when 'Peaks' took over. Pannier tanks were far from unknown, ex-GW 'Prairies' sometimes worked the Bath locals, and 2800/3800 class 2-8-0s sometimes appeared in lieu of an ex-S & D 7F. 'Halls' and 'Granges' were commonplace. I am talking 1959-62 period. As for the LMS diesel 'twins' - I doubt it! Don't remember ever seeing a D600 'Warship' either, though the D800 variety was not unknown.

[Pines Alan]

I'm not sure that ex GW 28xx locos would have necessarily deputised for the S&D 7Fs but they certainly appeared on the Mangotsfield to Bath Green Park line. Published records that I am aware of are:

3865 on 04/05/57 on Bath Green Park shed, photographed by Ivo Peters and in Trains Illustrated for July that year;

3804 08/08/59 on Pigeon Special. Photographed by Colin G Maggs;

2890 10/01/62 Light engine from Swindon for "Route Availability and clearance tests in the Bath GP - Westerleigh - Mangotsfield area".
Report in Modern Railways March 1962.

These are probably not the only examples but are from items I have readily to hand.

Regards
Alan Hireson

[oldchapie]

Looking through some old note books I found some references to class 68xx grange locos on the Marizion to Stoke? the traffic was fully fitted wagons sheeted loaded with china clay. The loaded wagons were very heavy but I do not remember having a banker from engine shed box.Oh the joy of shovelling coal!

[Blandford1969]

Thanks for the replies so far. Its a shame the twins did not get down they are going to be a lovely model.

Its also interesting to read of the engines that ran through. Many thanks for your help

Kind regards

Duncan

[Robin Summerhill]

I once read that ex-GW engines were rare on the line through Mangotsfield. That does not accord with my recollections. 'The Cornishman' (down) I recall nearly always had a 'Castle' (which looked great with its chocolate & cream BR standard coaches) until about 1960 when 'Peaks' took over. Pannier tanks were far from unknown, ex-GW 'Prairies' sometimes worked the Bath locals, and 2800/3800 class 2-8-0s sometimes appeared in lieu of an ex-S & D 7F. 'Halls' and 'Granges' were commonplace. I am talking 1959-62 period. As for the LMS diesel 'twins' - I doubt it! Don't remember ever seeing a D600 'Warship' either, though the D800 variety was not unknown.

A few points to pick up on here. Until "full" dieselisation in September 1962 (term used loosely because it never quite happened ) of the Midland line express service, the "Cornishman" was a Wolverhampton Stafford Road turn for both locomotive and crew, so you would regularly see a Castle on the train.

Ex-GW engines were also commonplace on Sundays when the Severn Tunnel was closed for engineering work and trains were diverted via Gloucester and, as an effective continuation of the old "running powers" agreement between Standish and Yate, ex-GW engines could be seen working "GW" freight trains between Gloucester and Bristol, although most of these would use the loop at Westerleigh to rejoin the GW main line to Stoke Gifford.

After nationalisation, there was a degree of "westernisation" of the ex-LMS lines, and a few GW engines were allocated to Barrow Road. For example, in April 1960 82E had pannier tanks 3606, 3752 and 8725, 4300 class 2-6-0s 6323, 6346, 6350 and 6376, and 2251 class 0-6-0 no. 2229. Pannier tanks were also allocated to Bath Green Park, and Templecombe had some 2251 class 0-6-0s and the odd pannier. One of the stupidities from the time was that the ex-LMS sheds did not carry spares for ex-GW engines, so they were sent to St Phillips Marsh for repair. Needless to say, therefore, examples of all these types could be seen on the ex-MR line either working or being sent to 82B for maintenance.

As regards your other points, I can't find any evidence to prove you wrong but my experiences are not the same as yours. EX-GW railcars sometimes worked to Green Park on the Bristol locals, but I never saw a GW prairie tank on the job. Indeed, the only way this could have happened would have been if Barrow Road found one kicking about doing nothing (which would be unlikely as they would have no cause to have one on shed, but I'll pick up on this again in the final paragraph), or they were so short of engines that they asked SPM for help.

I know of no recorded instance of a GW 2-8-0 deputising for a S&D 7F, and certainly not on the S&D itself. However, the 7Fs did work regularly to Avonmouth and Stapleton Road Gasworks, and I suppose it is not impossible that, if one had failed at one of those points, a GW engine could have taken over the turn. In those days, though, it would be much more likely for the return freight working to be cancelled.

All this changed virtually overnight when Gloucester Barnwood and St Phillips Marsh sheds closed in May and June 1964 respectively. After that, Barrow Road received SPMs entire serviceable allocation (38 ex-GW engines allocated by July 64) so any of them could be seen on the Midland line services, and Gloucester Horton Road depot was called upon to provide power for the Bristol locals. This resulted in Manors and Ivatt and Standard variant 2-6-0s appearing on these trains, but even then I do not recall seeing a tank engine on these workings. Whether they had sufficient coal/ water carrying capacity which limited their use on these trains I do not know.

I don't normally mention this, but all my data comes from my own research www.br-steam-allocations.co.uk

[Pines Alan]

An Ivo Peters photo recorded GW 2-6-2T No. 5528 at Bath Green Park with the 6.18 pm to Bristol. Unfortunately there is no date in the caption in the book concerned.

4572 was photographed by Colin G Maggs west of Bath on the same working and is dated 28 May 1957.

Regards

[Robin Summerhill]

An Ivo Peters photo recorded GW 2-6-2T No. 5528 at Bath Green Park with the 6.18 pm to Bristol. Unfortunately there is no date in the caption in the book concerned.

4572 was photographed by Colin G Maggs west of Bath on the same working and is dated 28 May 1957.

Regards

Just a thought - when did the Standard Class 3 2-6-6Ts arrive in Bristol and Bath? Its not beyond the realms of possibility that ex-GW engines were being tried on the locals with a view to using them.

The problem is neither of us is quite old enough to be able to answer that question Anybody else around with a few more years under their belt who can?

[trafalgar45682]

Looking through my records for the 1960's, there was certainly an increase in Barrow Road and Gloucester Horton Road using WR engines on Midland turns. Here are some of my observations
2H74 3.45 Gloucester 6947 Wed July 1 1964
2B74 6.45 ex-Gloucester 6956 Fri July 3 1964
2B74 6.45 ex-Gloucester 6859 Wed Sept 30 1964
2B74 5.43 ex-Gloucester 5056 Tue Nov 17 1964
6M12 7.33 Barrow Road - Avonmouth - Lawley Street 3802 Wed Nov 18
1H74 10.15 Gloucester (MO) 6947 Mon Feb 1 1965
1M74 6.30 Birmingham 7029 Thurs Feb 11 1965

and rather surprisingly, two weeks before closure of the shed, Barrow Road used 6141 on the 2C93 17.55 Bath on Thurs Nov 4 and Fri Nov 5 1965.

The 1H74 and 1M74 were the last two express trains diagrammed for steam in Jan and Feb 1965, other than the Summer Wolverhampton turns which generally brought 70045 and 70053 to Bristol.

[Robin Summerhill]

An Ivo Peters photo recorded GW 2-6-2T No. 5528 at Bath Green Park with the 6.18 pm to Bristol. Unfortunately there is no date in the caption in the book concerned.

4572 was photographed by Colin G Maggs west of Bath on the same working and is dated 28 May 1957.

Regards

Just a thought - when did the Standard Class 3 2-6-6Ts arrive in Bristol and Bath? Its not beyond the realms of possibility that ex-GW engines were being tried on the locals with a view to using them.

The problem is neither of us is quite old enough to be able to answer that question Anybody else around with a few more years under their belt who can?

A further thought - the 1710 Bristol to Green park and 1818 return was, as far as I am aware, the only turn when an ex-GW railcar was likely to be seen on the line.

This suggests to me that perhaps, for a short time, this turn might have been covered by St Phillips Marsh or Bath Road for some reason. It is the case that in the late 50s/ early 60s, some Portishead line trains were worked by Barrow Road men, so perhaps there was some sort of reciprocal arrangement in place?

Once again, over to anybody who was 10 years older than Alan or me in 1960 or so to shed some light on the matter?

[Blandford1969]

Thanks for the replies with ideas on specific locos which were seen. I have got a set of negatives showing the ex GW railcar at Bath and at Bitton.

Certainly Modelling the Somerset and Dorset makes reference to GW small praries.

The class 3s arrived i think in about 1959/60.

[trafalgar45682]

I have included some photo's of both Western and Midland engines on Gloucester locals in the period 1963-64

http://flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/s ... 5395704513

I hope these are of interest

[Blandford1969]

I have included some photo's of both Western and Midland engines on Gloucester locals in the period 1963-64

http://flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/s ... 5395704513

I hope these are of interest

Hi, very interesting many thanks. Did 51 or 41xx tanks ever go through. It seams like it was mainly the 4-6-0s, Panniers and a smattering of 2-8-0s and 43xxs

Regards
Duncan

[Robin Summerhill]

Did 51 or 41xx tanks ever go through. It seams like it was mainly the 4-6-0s, Panniers and a smattering of 2-8-0s and 43xxs

Regards
Duncan

As Alan Hireson has already reminded us, there were cases of GWR prairie tanks working between Bristol and Bath in the mid to late 1950s.

I never saw one - the locals between Bristol and Bath were being worked by Ivatt class 2 2-6-2Ts and Standard class 3 2-6-6Ts by the time I came along and, in the last 3 or so years, supplemented by Peaks and Hymeks and possibly the D63xx class. I don't recall ever seeing one of the latter though.

The question really is where would they have come from and what would they be doing on normal service trains? There were never that many in Bristol after the DMUs arrived; Bath Road had a couple prior to its closure for conversion to a diesel depot, and there were also one or two at 82B. I notice from my records that one, 4131, was based at Barrow Road from October 1962 until withdrawal in August 1964. I don't know what they wanted it for but, if it was used for the same work as 6141 was (which was allocated to 82E in the last few weeks before closure) then it would have been mainly station pilot duties.

At the other end of the line, Gloucester Horton Road kept some prairies for the Gloucester-Cheltenham portion of the London expresses, one was also often at Brimscombe for banking duties to Sapperton, and they could also be seen on some of the local passenger workings (especially Cheltenham to Kingham) until those services were picked off one by one during the 60s. As mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, Horton Road had nothing to do with ex-MR line trains until Barnwood closed, so one coming down from Gloucester would again be unlikely.

Its always best to remember, however, that in steam days "unlikely" did not mean "impossible." All sorts of unusual engines turned up in all sorts of unusual places due to sheds "borrowing" a visitor, or a cock-up in diagramming ("Castle" to Portsmouth, perhaps ).

So, if your concern is in modelling, I am sure you could dream up a scenario where Barnwood was so short of engines it borrowed a prairie from Horton Road to work a Bristol local. The fact that none of us ever saw it happens doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't

And, who knows, perhaps Barrow Road turned out 4131 one day for the "Parnalls train" (0820 Bristol to Yate)