The Bristol Railway Archive

Hi all,

I recently obtained a working timetable for the Sept 1957/June 1958 period for the old Midland line out of Bristol which was of course then under LMR control. The timetable shows all passenger, parcels and ECS workings between Derby Midland and Bristol TM. There is an interesting working shown therein namely the ECS from the 6.28 pm (Suns) Newcastle - Bristol. For some reason the stock (3:05 am off TM) does not go to Lawrence Hill Jcn but to Yate! Why Yate? The loco returns light to Barrow Rd at 3:45. So somewhere in the tables there should be a balancing working (probably MO) taking said ECS back to TM for a northbound train, but I cannot find any reference to such a movement. Any clues from the more senior members on this forum as to the fate of this seemingly one-way traffic will be much appreciated. Perhaps someone even has a supplement to the WTT in question in which an amendment has been made and all has been made clear!

Starting to write a reply 3 minutes after your original post, and posting it 25 minutes after, makes it look like I've been here all day, but I've just come back from the pub and just dropped in to see if anything was going on

It wasn't just in the 57/58 timetable. The same thing is shown in my 1959/60 WTT and I've often wondered the same thing. There is no sign of that ECS moving out again. The possibility crossed my mind that it might have left later via the GW line and Westerleigh West but, if that were to be the case, it would still have been shown in the WTT as leaving Yate and taking that route.

Another possibility is that it might have been attached to another train for its return southbound. In those days there was a Bristol to Yate local service (there was a local name for it but I've forgotten - perhaps Horace can remember? - something to do with one of the factories in Yate High Street IIRC, because it was primarily run for the workers in those factories) 0820SX ex-BTM arrive Yate 0846, ECS back to Lawrence Hill depart 0905.

It is not impossible that the Newcastle ECS was attached to that ECS on Monday mornings.

The only reason I can think of for ECS running to Yate rather than Lawrence Hill on Monday mornings is that, possibly, there was no room for it until the stock that had been stabled all day on Sunday had been moved out for the Monday service, thereby freeing up space.

There were some sidings at Mangotsfield North on the western side of the line that were used for storage of coaches when I was a lad (we're talking late 50s/ early 60s here), but as I recall they were always full. Therefore (presumably) if you wanted put ECS somewhere "out of the way" on the Midland line until Lawrence Hill could accommodate it, and you didn't want it cluttering up Westerleigh Yard, then Yate would have been the closest place to put it.

As you see, I haven't answered your question, but just added a few more questions to it

Is it possible the factory in question was Parnall's. I think they manufactured domestic appliances, what we would refer to as 'white goods' these days. I'm almost certain they were around during WW2 and manufactured stuff for the war effort.

Robin, I was thinking the same regarding the Mondays-only attachment of the stock to the return ECS from the TM - Yate 'workman's' service, which presumably was run mainly for the benefit of Parnall's factory (south of the main line behind Yate ML signalbox as I recall). The loco would have had nearly 20 mins to carry out the necessary manouevres before departing. I suppose the Newcastle - Bristol train would have been a substantial load (maybe 9 or 10) and so together with the 2 or 3 coaches of the workman's ECS any combined working would have provided quite a haul for what would surely have been a Fowler 4F max, but then it was mainly downhill to Bristol and such locos hauled summer Saturday expresses over the same route often enough!

A page or two further on in the same timetable there is another interesting ECS working - 9:25 am Lawrence Hill Jcn - Mangotsfield N Jcn, then round the triangle and back to Lawrence Hill Jcn for 10:07 (non-stop via Mangotsfield station). What was that all about?

You beat me to it - greenmile - and what you said about Parnalls producing items for the war effort is correct. My mother as a teenage girl would catch the train from Charfield to Yate to work as a lathe operator there producing rear gunner turrets for British bombers.
My dad, who before call-up worked as booking clerk at Charfield station, recounts that the station staff, on hearing bomber aircraft over-flying the station very low, ran outside to cheer 'our lads' only to discover it was a German aircraft using the railway line to mark their route to Parnalls, which was bombed, resulting in many casualties.

buxton4472 wrote: A page or two further on in the same timetable there is another interesting ECS working - 9:25 am Lawrence Hill Jcn - Mangotsfield N Jcn, then round the triangle and back to Lawrence Hill Jcn for 10:07 (non-stop via Mangotsfield station). What was that all about?

That was turning the Newcastle mail (presumably so that the mailbag receiving/ despatch equipment was on the correct side of the train?)

Roy has jogged my memory - it was known as the "Parnall's train"

My observation records from the first few months of 1963 that inexplicably survived a "clear out" of my parents place when I left home in 1970, shows that the usual power was an Ivatt class 2 or Standard Class 3 tank, so a load of 12-13 coaches would be an impressive task for one of those

However, the 1959/60 WTT allows 24 minutes (0905-0929) for the train to get from Yate to Lawrence Hill, a distance of just under 10 miles and, as has already been said, mainly downhill. I would say that this puts this option of attaching the Newcastle ECS to the Yate ECS well within the bounds of possibility.

We do, of course, have an ex-Barrow Road footplate man who contributes here. What can you add, Colin?

Robin Summerhill wrote:

buxton4472 wrote: A page or two further on in the same timetable there is another interesting ECS working - 9:25 am Lawrence Hill Jcn - Mangotsfield N Jcn, then round the triangle and back to Lawrence Hill Jcn for 10:07 (non-stop via Mangotsfield station). What was that all about?

That was turning the Newcastle mail (presumably so that the mailbag receiving/ despatch equipment was on the correct side of the train?)

Ah, that explains it. Did the whole consist get dragged up to Mangotsfield or just the TPO(s)? And if the latter, would it not have been more cost-effective to run them round the Rhubarb curve, or was that strictly WR territiory? Thinking about it, I cannot recall any TPO catcher pick-ups south of Birmingham. Perhaps such equipment was used on the Newcastle - York section.

Still vaguely on-topic (at least as far as ECS movements are concerned) another intriguing working was the (again Mons only) 5:00 am Westerleigh Sidings to Saltley (3M93) which ran at least 1963-ish. Was this composed of passenger coaching stock or parcels vans? Any clues as to the southbound working and indeed how the stock came to be at Westerleigh would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, I only have the WTT for Charfield to Barnt Green showing this train, but the Bristol - Charfield tables in the equivalent Bristol area WTT would doubtless provide some useful information.

buxton4472 wrote: ..... I only have the WTT for Charfield to Barnt Green showing this train, but the Bristol - Charfield tables in the equivalent Bristol area WTT would doubtless provide some useful information.

Try here:

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?tok=34

In this instance not much help I am afraid, Robin, as the Bristol area WTT contemporary with mine is not available on Michael Clemens' site. (The Gloucester area books are more complete and certainly in the early 60's show the Westerleigh - Saltley train running during more than one season). There is a similar working to Saltley CS shown for other periods running in the same timings north of Yate but originating from Lawrence Hill Jcn, not Westerleigh. I dare say the stock was from the same train - possibly the 4:45 pm (Suns) Bradford - Bristol? Your reasoning with regard to lack of space at Bristol seems very feasible given that in some seasons two rakes of stock seemed to be outposted to the sticks on a Monday morning!

Did the whole consist get dragged up to Mangotsfield or just the TPO(s)?

Here is a pic of the very train & operation in question. See the text.

This exact location is easily identified right to this very day The wall and house are still there, unchanged ...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/54273406@N ... 230693702/

So it looks from the photo that the whole lot got dragged up to Mangotsfield. From the WTT entries, it would appear that the train got propelled from Mngotsfield N Jcn to S Jcn rather than the loco run round. Was this the case?

buxton4472 wrote: ..... would it not have been more cost-effective to run them round the Rhubarb curve, or was that strictly WR territory?

I think there are two things to remember here.

Firstly, things tended to be done "the way they always had been done" on the railway at that time. What was good enough for LMS days was also good enough for the early days of BR

When you stop and think about it, right up until the end of steam (or at least the closure of Bath Road to steam in 1960), there was very little overlap between the duties of the three depots in Bristol; Barrow Road worked the ex-LMS lines, Bath Road and SPM worked the ex-GW lines.

The second thing to remember is that running the mail up to Mangotsfield for turning, whilst involving more train mileage than turning it in Bristol, had very few conflicting movements. You ran it up to Mangotsfield South, propelled it to Mangotsfield North (not a section of line renowned for Clapham Junction style line occupation) and then ran it back down the main line again.

Running the thing towards Temple Meads and attempting to turn it on one of the triangles at Dr Days or North Somerset, or running it around the avoiding line, would have involved a lot more propelling or running round, and would get in the way of a lot more trains.

colin was stuck on the shed work when the real barrow road drivers did all the dashing about.although i did a couple of banking jobs.lol