The Bristol Railway Archive

From the 7F north of Bath thread:

buxton4472 wrote:

Robin Summerhill wrote:.... the 1962 WTT for Glocuester division freight trains ....

Quite off topic I know but having looked at that WTT it was interesting that the old Severn & Wye route was still showing entries for the evening freights using the Berkeley South Jcn - Berkeley Loop Jcn chord, despite the Severn Bridge having been rendered unusable nearly two years previously! !

We've had a number of discussions on here about the Severn Bridge but I don't think we've ever head a thread devoted to it. So here goes

When I first became aware of Michael Clemens' WTTs on line, I looked very closely at the Gloucester division and this raised as many queries as it answered.

As Buxton said on the other thread, the freight WTT for 1962 still shows freight services being timetabled over the bridge, albeit also showing as suspended.

Looking closely at the passenger WTT for 1962, you find that trains were also being timetabled across the bridge. You further find that whilst the morning service was operated by a Barnwood crew, the afternoon serice was operated by Lydney men (look for the LE and ECS movements Berkeley Road - Gloucester - Lydney). In a way this is perfectly understandable for the time - Lydney men worked the afternoon services to Berkeley Road and just because the bridge had a hole in it, this was no excuse for taking Lydney depot's work away from it (ahhh - those were the days )

However, this then begs a further question - just when was it decided to abandon the bridge? Was immediately after the accident occurred (in which case management ought to have been starting to get its act in gear and make sure the passenger service was covered by a more sensibly-located depot), or was there a period of indecision before it was decided that the bridge was not worth repairing? The fact that trains were still being timetabled in 1962 suggests the latter.

Does anybody have any ideas?

Robin Summerhill wrote: However, this then begs a further question - just when was it decided to abandon the bridge? .... The fact that trains were still being timetabled in 1962 suggests the latter.

According to BBC Gloucestershire's site...

"For two years there was a plan to rebuild the bridge and school children from Sharpness and Berkeley continued to attend Lydney grammar school thanks to a special train via Gloucester laid on by British Railways. But this was the era of Beeching and sometime after 1962, the plans were quietly dropped..."

So that would square with the '62 WTTs still carrying the suspended through services. I do not think they appeared in the '63 issues. However, in my digging around I found this in the Wikipedia entry for "Severn Railway Bridge"...

"The bridge was used as a diversionary route for the Severn Tunnel when this was closed for engineering work. The east-to-north curves at Westerleigh Junction used for this route were closed when the bridge was abandoned. This was also the case for the south-to-west curve at Berkeley Road."

OK - I grant that the bridge provided a diversionary route during Severn Tunnel closures and I can just remember winter Sunday trains through Charfield via the Berkeley loop, but these were Cardiff - Bristol services. By 1960, I am fairly certain the Westerleigh east chord had been closed. The only reason for the Westerleigh east chord to be retained would be if London - S Wales trains were diverted that way and thence via the bridge, but surely this was not the case - wouldn't they have used the Swindon - Kemble - Gloucester route (if only because of motive power route restrictions?) The winter 1960 Bristol area WTT shows signal-boxes still open at both Westerleigh North and East junctions, but no actual connection between the two on the inside cover route map. I wish I had WTTs for the area prior to 1960![/i]

My wife Helen (Ley) used to live in the Forest of Dean where her Grandad, Andy Jackson was a driver at Lydney. She recounts a trip accross the 'proper' Severn Bridge in 1958 on the footplate then back on the cushions. I asked her the number of the loco but she did not know! I would guess 1441 or 1461 which were the regular locos.

buxton4472 wrote: According to BBC Gloucestershire's site...

"For two years there was a plan to rebuild the bridge .....

But this was the era of Beeching and sometime after 1962, the plans were quietly dropped..."

But even that leaves unanswered questions.

In those days, as a general rule, when something went seriously wrong with a railway line (be it landslips, embankments collapsing, bridges being washed away, whatever), the Engineers were usually out virtually immediately putting it right. This never happened in the case of the Severn Bridge.

I've been racking my brains and I can't think of a single instance where a route has been closed/ abandoned following some structural failure or other (except Yate to Bristol via Mangotsfield which was within a few days of closure anyway when the embankment slipped between Staple Hill and Fishponds). Perhaps somebody else can think of an example?

buxton4472 wrote: However, in my digging around I found this in the Wikipedia entry for "Severn Railway Bridge"...

"The bridge was used as a diversionary route for the Severn Tunnel when this was closed for engineering work. The east-to-north curves at Westerleigh Junction used for this route were closed when the bridge was abandoned. This was also the case for the south-to-west curve at Berkeley Road."

The east to north chord at Westerleigh had nothing to do with Severn Bridge diversions. IIRC, it was put in during wartime and was of precious little use for any "ordinary" traffic, and that's why it was closed and lifted.

As you say, any South Wales main line trains diverted because of a Severn Tunnel closure would have gone via Kemble. The only real uses for the chord were for traffic originating (or terminating) between Wootton Bassett and Chipping Sodbury going to or from the north, or from between Stonehouse and Yate going east.

The only other possible use (and this just came to me before I hit "submit" ) might have been if Sharpness docks were used during wartime for traffic destined for London or somewhere else that would make the use of that chord worthwhile to avoid a reversal. This wouldn't have applied to anything coming from or going to the Forest of Dean because that could have gone via Grange Court and Kemble.

WHEELTAPPER wrote:My wife Helen (Ley) used to live in the Forest of Dean where her Grandad, Andy Jackson was a driver at Lydney. She recounts a trip accross the 'proper' Severn Bridge in 1958 on the footplate then back on the cushions. I asked her the number of the loco but she did not know! I would guess 1441 or 1461 which were the regular locos.

And to think I was too shy at the tender age of eight to accept a footplate ride from Berkeley Road to Lydney! But I do remember that it was a pannier tank, not an 0-4-2T on that occasion.

Another line closed for ever by a landslip was the Callender and Oban but that, too was scheduled for closure.

And this from the Peak Rail website history "The closure of the Ambergate-Chinley section actually began in 1954 when Dove Holes tunnel was found to be unsafe. The line was closed at night in order to carry out repairs and trains never again ran at night over this section."

jolly47roger wrote: And this from the Peak Rail website history "The closure of the Ambergate-Chinley section actually began in 1954 when Dove Holes tunnel was found to be unsafe. The line was closed at night in order to carry out repairs and trains never again ran at night over this section."

Well, they've run that way at night ever since I've lived a few miles away from Dove Holes Tunnel (1986)! (I used to hear the 37's thrashing up from Tunstead and Peak Forest in the middle of the night, now I hear nothing - the current motive power is too environmentally considerate!)

The East west Chord at westerleigh was put in with the badminton line's construction in 1903, but proved little used and were taken out of use almost imediatly, then the GWR had a little tiff with the Midland over I think using the rest of the line north of Berkely road for passenger services, so was subsequently out of use again in 1907. In 1917 the east curve was closed and then again reopened in 1918, the curve was then once again closed in 1927, and may have been lifted. With the demand on routes During WW2 the line was relaid/reopened in 1942, and was used untill 1950 when again it was T.o.u. And Finally lifted during the rationalisation of 1965.

As for Berkeley Road west curve this saw very little Traffic after 1960 when the Bridge( back to topic) was severed, and was closed and lifted in 1963, Incidentally the use of this curve follows approximatly the History of Westerleigh west curve which were both built for the same purpose.

tonyperks wrote:The East west Chord at westerleigh was put in with the badminton line's construction in 1903, but proved little used and were taken out of use almost imediatly, then the GWR had a little tiff with the Midland over I think using the rest of the line north of Berkely road for passenger services, so was subsequently out of use again in 1907. In 1917 the east curve was closed and then again reopened in 1918, the curve was then once again closed in 1927, and may have been lifted. With the demand on routes During WW2 the line was relaid/reopened in 1942, and was used untill 1950 when again it was T.o.u. And Finally lifted during the rationalisation of 1965.

Are you sure it was as late as 1965? I knew the line quite well from 1962 and don't remember it being there.

(Thats not to say it wasn't of course, just that I don't remember it!!)

tonyperks wrote:As for Berkeley Road west curve this saw very little Traffic after 1960 when the Bridge( back to topic) was severed, and was closed and lifted in 1963

Yes - my mates and I biked it from Charfield to Berkeley Rd South Jcn in 1964. The shallow cutting sides were a mass of blackberry bushes. We used to pick 'em and sell for 6d a lb to Bill Heaven who kept the stores (now part of the Railway Tavern in Charfield). He would send off a barrow-load of baskets of the fruit on the 7:15 pm up stopper to end up on market stalls at Derby, Sheffield, etc the following morning. After picking six bob's worth of berries, we visited Berkeley Rd South Jcn signal-box which was was still standing, door not locked, frame intact but no block instruments (perhaps the open door policy saw them 'lifted' one night!) As I recall, Berkeley Loop Jcn's distant signal was still there intact - the arm was probably 'lifted' shortly afterwards!
As a slight aside, during the last year Charfield station was open, one balmy September evening, said blackberries were being barrowed from the down platform to the up in readiness for putting aboard the last up slow. The porter lost control of the heavy barrow going down the down platform ramp and the barrow careered to an abrupt halt thankfully clear of the down main. The fruit, however, was catapulted into a heap of berries over the left-hand rail. Before any salvage could be contemplated, the Peak-hauled 12:15 ex Newcastle (1V45) bore down at 70 mph onto the hapless pile. Result - purple carnage! An interesting insurance claim, perhaps!

Robin Summerhill wrote:

tonyperks wrote:The East west Chord at westerleigh was .... finally lifted during the rationalisation of 1965.

Are you sure it was as late as 1965? I knew the line quite well from 1962 and don't remember it being there.

Nor me, and although in the 1960/61 WTT, Westerleigh East and North boxes were shown as still 'open' although the latter on an 'as required' basis (probably never!), in the section showing speed limits through junctions there is no mention of the East chord connections at either. My guess is that the point connections had been removed by this time leaving the double track marooned and overgrown therefore not visible, if indeed it was still in place.

Robin Summerhill wrote:[In those days, as a general rule, when something went seriously wrong with a railway line (be it landslips, embankments collapsing, bridges being washed away, whatever), the Engineers were usually out virtually immediately putting it right. This never happened in the case of the Severn Bridge.

I've been racking my brains and I can't think of a single instance where a route has been closed/ abandoned following some structural failure or other (except Yate to Bristol via Mangotsfield which was within a few days of closure anyway when the embankment slipped between Staple Hill and Fishponds). Perhaps somebody else can think of an example?

Several cases in WW2, especially in London, where routes were abandoned after bomb damage, which is comparable to the Severn Bridge destruction. The electric service from Willesden Junction to Earls Court is an example.

Bill wrote:

Robin Summerhill wrote:[In those days, as a general rule, when something went seriously wrong with a railway line (be it landslips, embankments collapsing, bridges being washed away, whatever), the Engineers were usually out virtually immediately putting it right. This never happened in the case of the Severn Bridge.

I've been racking my brains and I can't think of a single instance where a route has been closed/ abandoned following some structural failure or other (except Yate to Bristol via Mangotsfield which was within a few days of closure anyway when the embankment slipped between Staple Hill and Fishponds). Perhaps somebody else can think of an example?

Several cases in WW2, especially in London, where routes were abandoned after bomb damage, which is comparable to the Severn Bridge destruction. The electric service from Willesden Junction to Earls Court is an example.

I can think of a few cases in South Wales too. There were so many lines that diversions could be arranged - especially once the coal traffic was on the decline. For instance:
in 1947 Gyfylcha Tunnel (1100yds) on the South Wales Mineral Rly line up to Glyncorrwg was blocked by a landslide. It was never cleared & coal traffic from Glyncorrwg was diverted at Cymmer onto the GWR line through Maesteg.
In 1960 the Rhondda & Swanse Bay line up to Treherbert suffered subsidence beyond Cymmer. Connections were put in to allow about a mile of the parallel branch to Abergwnfi to be used.
In February 1968, again on the R&SB line, the 3443yd Rhondda Tunnel was declared unsafe & passenger services through it were replaced by buses. (If there was any coal traffic that was diverted too). By a happy coincidence I had travelled through it in October 1967 on the Warwickshire Rly Soc's South Wales Branch tour (No.1). Was anybody else on that tour? I seem to remember it being a wet, gloomy day. The Bridgend - Cymmer - Treherbert passenger service finally ended in December 1970 & Rhondda tunnel closed officially.
And didn't the Cheltenham - Honeyborne line close prematurely after the derailment of a goods train in August 1976, primarily I think due to track movement - a problem that besets the heritage G/WR to this day?

mjt wrote:And didn't the Cheltenham - Honeyborne line close prematurely after the derailment of a goods train in August 1976, primarily I think due to track movement - a problem that besets the heritage G/WR to this day?

The freight lines around Carlisle station were similarly abandoned in the 1984 after a substantial derailment which was considered, in those lean financial times for the system, just not worth repairing. In this case there had been no prior intention of closing them but things were just rearranged afterwards.

mjt wrote: Was anybody else on that tour? I seem to remember it being a wet, gloomy day. The Bridgend - Cymmer - Treherbert passenger service finally ended in December 1970 & Rhondda tunnel closed officially.
And didn't the Cheltenham - Honeyborne line close prematurely after the derailment of a goods train in August 1976, primarily I think due to track movement - a problem that besets the heritage G/WR to this day?

No, not on that tour, but our school railway club (as in The School Railway Club discussion) spent a snowy / sleety day in South Wales in December 1969- we went to Barry, on to Maesteg where the Hunslet (Austerity?) was in steam and GWR Pannier 9642 was not, then on to the train for Treherbert- or so we thought. We hadn't heard about Rhondda tunnel being closed, so the bus journey (from Cymmer, I think) was a bit of a disappointment!

Might the deterioration of Cymmer Tunnel be another example of structural failure that resulted in a closure? The forgotten relics blog http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/tunnel ... ymmer.html suggests that it was a contributory factor, at least.