S&D 2-8-0s North of Bath

[Pines Alan]

Sorry - inadvertently previously put this in the "News and Press Releases" section!

Hello folks. On another discussion group I am following an argument that states that the above locomotives were uncommon north of Bath (i.e. the Mangotsfield line). I am convinced that, from at least 1956 when I became aware of such things, that these engines were regular performers to Westerleigh and/or Avonmouth.
The counter-argument runs that the locos were strictly confined to the S&D line unless going to or from Derby works for repairs.
Can anyone comment please just to reassure me - or prove me wrong!
The same person also states that these engines were only used in an emergency on Summer Saturday trains NORTH OF BATH. Although one or two sightings are in print I never saw this happen personally - again, anyone any thoughts please?
Incidentally, group members may have seen the book "British Railways: Railway Centres No 3: Bath Green Park û Summer 1957" published by "Xpress". My name is in it thanking me for my contribution. I wonder if I may use this forum to make it clear that I had no input whatsoever to this book, was never asked if my name could be used, never shown a proof or otherwise invited to comment. Letters to the publisher highlighting numerous errors within were responded to in a most aggressive manner.
_________________
Alan Hireson

[Robin Summerhill]

Hmmmm ....

Alan

As we stood together on a number of occasions in the early 60s and watched the bloody things go by, I'm not sure that my views represent those of an independent third party

As we both know, your correspondent on another forum is talking a load of dingo's kidneys (quote from Douglas Adams, in case anybody is interested). I saw my first 7F (well, shall we say the first time that I recognised one for what it was, rather than simply as a "steam engine going by" in the days before I got interested) was at the eastern portal of Staple Hill tunnel in mid-1962. It was 53810, and it was employed on one of the coal trains going to Stapleton Road gas works, which was one of their regular duties out of Bath. They were also frequently seen in Avonmouth and Westerleigh sidings.

This certainly applied in the post-nationalisation era. The only caveat that I would put on all this is that the S&D, of course, was still considered an LMS/SR joint line until 1930, and the locomotives were built specifically for S&D work. There was also of course a separate Midland shed at Bath Green Park, but whether or not there were two sets of men/ two sets of management prior to 1930 I wouldn't know.

So what I am saying is, while the S&D was still considered a separate entity prior to 1930, I could envisage a situation where they only worked south from Bath. I could also envisage this carrying on as "custom and practice" in later years. How late "later years" might apply is something else I must leave to others to comment on.

Notwithstanding all that, it is certainly the case that the 7Fs worked north of Bath on freight regularly to Westerleigh, Avonmouth and Stapleton Road gas works. I never personally saw one on a passenger working north of Bath, but it would be a very confident man indeed who would say it never happened. I can easily envisage a situation where the Shedmaster at Bath, faced with a couple of failures and only having a 7F available for traffic immediately, would have rostered one for a northbound passenger train. However, as far as I am aware, Green Park men worked north only as far as Gloucester and, if one was rostered on a northbound train, I'm pretty sure the driver would have gone with strict instructions to bring it straight back

[trafalgar45682]

The Winter WTT for 1963-64 shows two turns for these engines from Bath Shed going north :

T954 Bath-Westerleigh-St Philips-Kingswood Junction-Avonmouth-Kingswood Junction-Fishponds-Bath

T956 Bath- Westerleigh-Bath-Bristol-Parsons Street-Fishponds-Westerleigh-Bath

T964 the Stapleton Road Gasworks turn was booked for a 4F, but may well have been a 538xx on many occasions

[Pines Alan]

Thanks for replies so far. The main bone of contention is when did workings north of Bath become commonplace. One side of the argument says during "the last days" from about 1961 onwards.
I believe it was earlier than that. Although I kept no notes of sightings (well you don't when you are 5 or 6 do you) I do know that I saw the whole class. As the first withdrawal was 1959 I feel I must have seen all the locos by about that year.


PS I think the complete Adams quote was "fetid dingo's kidneys".

[Robin Summerhill]

Seriously off topic ......

PS I think the complete Adams quote was "fetid dingo's kidneys".

http://www.whysanity.net/monos/hikers.html

[Robin Summerhill]

A few more serious thoughts on this topic.

The 7Fs were specifically designed for the freight service on the S&D, and primarily on the northen section of the line beyond Evercreech. Not only were they specifically designed for this work, but Bath Green Park had no other engines (until the 8Fs began to arrive) that could adequately cover the work the 7Fs did. A 4F, for example, could not handle the loads that were entrusted to the 7Fs and could certainly not stop in an emergency with such a load on a downhill train! Records exist of various locomotives being tried out on the S&D with a view to replacing the 7Fs, and the runaway capabilities of an Austerity 2-8-0 with a 7F load are also well documented.

So it goes without saying that Bath needed them for the S&D freight service, so that is the work they would normally be used on. However, freight tends to be seasonal, it also tends to be conditional and, if there wasn't a good enough load for a scheduled freight to take, it would often be cancelled. That is how the railway was run in those days. In the case of Bath, this could easily have resulted in a 7F being available for traffic without a turn of duty to perform, and in these circumstances any Shedmaster/ Running Foreman may utilise it during its period of standing spare.

Another matter to take into account is the way that BR gradually lost freight during the 50s and 60s and, in the case of the S&D, especially the heavy coal trains as the Somerset pits closed one by one.

Applying a bit of logic to this suggests that the appearance of 7Fs on freight work north of Bath may well have become more prevalent in later years as the heavier S&D traffic declined. And that would probably have been post-nationalisation, and more probably in the mid-50s

So unless anybody can come up with any specific dates I'd say that you were both right in your own way!

[Robin Summerhill]

I've been doing a bit more research on this from my 1959 WTT - admittedly a little late in the day because there is no doubt that the 7Fs were working north from Bath by then. Nevertheless, there is an interesting pattern to be found in the WTT that may have applied in earlier years.

In November 1959 all but one of the 7Fs were still in service (ie 10 locomotives), not all of which would of course be available for traffic on any given day. There were 8 "fast" freights between Bath and Evercreech plus a couple of "pick-ups" per weekday, the latter could/ would have been worked by other locomotives. 6 of these 8 freights left Bath between 0330 and 1400 and, applying a bit of educated guesswork to the locomotive diagrams the timings would have looked something like this (pity you can't paste a table into this forum!):

Bath Evercreech Bath arr
0330 0530 - 0800 1025
0500 0715 - 0820 1223
0855 1050 - 1305 1550
1100 1322 - 1520 1747
1235 1500 - 1645 1840
1400 1619 - 1920 2048
2055 2230 - 2330 0114
2250 0049 - 0110 0238

It will be seen that the opportunity for a 7F to do two return trips per day was limited; the majority would have only done one return trip per day, leaving ample "spare" time for the engines to be sent on fill-in turns to Westerleigh, Avonmouth, West Depot and Stapleton Road gas works.

[the green mile]

On a slightly different t(r)ack but still related....

This afternoon, I overtook a distinctly Midland looking tender travelling south on the M5 between the Portishead and Clevedon junctions. It was lettered S & D J R so I assume it was from a 7F and presumably heading for the WSR. Sadly, the consist was incomplete as there was no sign of the associated loco. It was doing quite well up the grade without a banker.

[Marsh'Un]

Just revisited this thread.

Can anyone confirm that engines from Green Park shed (including the 538xx class) used to visit Barrow Road for repair ?
Maybe for use of the wheeldrop facility which I believe was available at 82E ?

[tonyperks]

The Winter WTT for 1963-64 shows two turns for these engines from Bath Shed going north :

T954 Bath-Westerleigh-St Philips-Kingswood Junction-Avonmouth-Kingswood Junction-Fishponds-Bath

T956 Bath- Westerleigh-Bath-Bristol-Parsons Street-Fishponds-Westerleigh-Bath

T964 the Stapleton Road Gasworks turn was booked for a 4F, but may well have been a 538xx on many occasions

Sorry but, how would you get from st pips to kingswood jnc then avon mouth?, would there be a run round in the coal yard at Fishponds?, no doubting you but this could be an interesting working for my TS2012 route i am building.

[trafalgar45682]

TonyPerks wrote

How would you get from St Philips to Avonmouth ?



The detail on turn T954 is that it left Bath at 6.15 on 9F42 to Westerleigh Sidings, thenfrom Westerleigh to St Philips on 9F42 arriving at 8.38. It then left engine and brake van (0F42) at 9.10 to Kingswood Junction at Fishponds, then to Avonmouth Old Yard arriving at 9.45. From there it made its way back to Bath on 9F42. The line at Kingswood Junction passed through Eastville to Narroways Hill Junction where it joined the line to Avonmouth and Severn Beach. I believe it was closed in 1965, but plenty of traces still remain, including the buttresses at Narroways.

Marsh'Un wrote

Can anyone confirm that engines from Green Park shed (including the 538xx class) used to visit Barrow Road for repair ?



The 538xx class were occasional visitors to Barrow Road, probably for repair as you suggest. The first member of the class I saw was 53810 dead in the sidings adjacent to the shed. I remember it well as, other than 51217/8, engines beginning with a 5 did not visit Barrow Road.

[Robin Summerhill]

There was a fairly standard procedure of light engines running from Barrow Road to Avonmouth to pick up Midland line freight workings. The usual procedure was a simple reversal at Kingswood Junction and then via Narroways and Clifton Down.

I'd never thought of this before but, if it was an engine + brake that was booked to run light, would the van be propelled up the bank to Kingswood or would the engine run round the van there?

[tonyperks]

I have on an old Video somewhere a 8F running light and van propelling the van But i think this was at Mang' Nth jnc, I think the comentry went something like this was the max allowed for the main line?, cant go and play it as the VCR is now living in the loft! with the spiders!

[buxton4472]

Hi - I'm new on here so treat me gently! I lived as a boy in Charfield and was an avid trainspotter from 1958 - 1967. I also enjoyed watching the village cricket team in action and on one hot summer Sunday was torn between my two allegiances when whilst watching the cricket I saw 7F 53806 saunter into the station at Charfield light engine from the south where it stood for a good period of time before heading back south. This was the only occasion I can remember of an S&D 7F working that far north, but recently I came across this photo of a 7F taken on the docks branch line near California Crossing (south of Glos Eastgate station).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/midlandexp ... 760983197/.

[Robin Summerhill]

..... recently I came across this photo of a 7F taken on the docks branch line near California Crossing (south of Glos Eastgate station).

http://www.flickr.com/photos/midlandexp ... 760983197/.

Which of course proves the point beyond any shadow of doubt that the 7Fs did indeed work north of Bath, and your post reminded me that I've also seen (somewhere - Lord know where that might be at the moment!) another photograph of one (perhaps a bit later on the same day) coming back up the Docks branch.

It did strike me as surprising that 7Fs were allowed down there in the first place as the line was normally worked by the Midland 0-4-0Ts kept at Barnwood specifically for the purpose.

To me, it also poses the further question, leaving to one side the possible restrictions due to weight and curvature on the High Orchard branch, how did it come to be used on such a train. I would have thought it highly unlikely that Barnwood would have got its mits on one, unless the engine in question was en route to or from Derby for overhaul (which itself is of course another fairly obvious pointer to the fact that they went north of Bath).

Has anybody else got any thoughts on this?