LMS Compounds in Bristol

[mjt]

When did LMS 4-4-0 Compounds stop working into Bristol?
This fotopic site : http://g.e.r.fotopic.net/c702402_1.html has a photo of 41123 (I think, it's a bit indistinct) at TM. All the photos in the site are dated 24 September 1958 which is a bit suspicious & definitely can't be the case for all of them.

According to BritishSteam 41123 was withdrawn from Gloucester (Barnwood) in December 1959 (outliving 3 other Glo'ster compounds by 18 months & more) so it seems quite possible that Compounds appeared in Bristol until 1959 - but (apart from this one) there doesn't seem to any photos from the late '50s shewing them. I started 'spotting at TM in August 58 & I never saw one - though I didn't start going to Barrow Road for a year or so after that unfortunately.

Any ideas?

[Robin Summerhill]

When did LMS 4-4-0 Compounds stop working into Bristol?
This fotopic site : http://g.e.r.fotopic.net/c702402_1.html has a photo of 41123 (I think, it's a bit indistinct) at TM. All the photos in the site are dated 24 September 1958 which is a bit suspicious & definitely can't be the case for all of them.

According to BritishSteam 41123 was withdrawn from Gloucester (Barnwood) in December 1959 (outliving 3 other Glo'ster compounds by 18 months & more) so it seems quite possible that Compounds appeared in Bristol until 1959 - but (apart from this one) there doesn't seem to any photos from the late '50s shewing them. I started 'spotting at TM in August 58 & I never saw one - though I didn't start going to Barrow Road for a year or so after that unfortunately.

Any ideas?

Short answer - no.

Longer answer - By the 1950s the remaining compounds were relegated to lighter workings, but one of the interesting things about local services between Bristol and Brum was that there were a lot more through trains than the timetable used to show. It was commonplace for trains to be stopped and shunted at Gloucester (and sometimes Worcester) to allow an express to pass, and then continue an hour or so later. The engines would work through.

In additon, they were used as pilot engines when a train had loaded above the maximum weight for its booked engine (by then usually a BR or LMS class 5 or a Jubilee). I am told by an ex-fireman from Green Park that they very occasionally turned up piloting S&D bound trains in the mid to late 50s.

The reason I mention all this is that it would not only be Gloucester engines that might appear in Bristol. Whilst there were compounds at Saltley, Derby or indeed Sheffield Millhouses and Leeds Holbeck (Barrow Road had a lodging turn to Leeds) there would always be a chance that one might turn up at Bristol. Incidentally, 40907 survived at Millhouses until September 1960.

[Robin Summerhill]

All the photos in the site are dated 24 September 1958 which is a bit suspicious & definitely can't be the case for all of them.

Why do you say that?

Although I wasn't involved in 1958 (I was six at the time ) it looks to me like a quite ordinary day in TM in the late 50s/ early 60s.

The only diesels shown are lower-numbered Warships (so 1958 is plausible) and ex-GW railcars (still around at that time), and the weather conditions seem the same for all the photographs, cloudy with sunny spells. The only exceptions are the photograph of a Jubilee at the end of old platform 5, showing a wet platform (but it is right next to the water column) and the shot of a County in the evening at the north end of no.7 (perhaps there was a late shower?).

Strikes me that somebody went to TM for the day with a couple of rolls of film and pointed his camera at most things that turned up!

[DAVE]

Not been on this forum for quite sometime and have now retired to Bideford.
This topic certainly "caught" my eye as my train spotting days in Bristol started in 1958.
The date for some of the photos is slightly later as two of the Warships shown were delivered from Swindon in April/May 1959 [D804/D805].
Never "copped" any Midland compounds in the Bristol area in spite of many trips to Barrow road in the late fifties early 60's.
Nice to see a couple of pictures of Barfleur one of Barrow roads Jubilees and also a nice shot of the "Midland station" at Temple meads.
Hope to be posting a bit more now I am a "young" silver surfer!

Dave

[mjt]

All the photos in the site are dated 24 September 1958 which is a bit suspicious & definitely can't be the case for all of them.

Why do you say that?

Although I wasn't involved in 1958 (I was six at the time ) it looks to me like a quite ordinary day in TM in the late 50s/ early 60s.

Strikes me that somebody went to TM for the day with a couple of rolls of film and pointed his camera at most things that turned up!

Well, apart from the 1959-built Warships that Dave has pointed out, there is West Country 34029 (which wasn't rebuilt until December 58 ) & City of Truro with CalRly 123 (if you look carefully enough you can just make it out) which visited TM for the last week of March 1960 (after display at Swindon in conjunction with the naming of Evening Star).

Even overlooking these anomalies I still think there is just too much variation for 1 day at TM for 1958-60. There are 2 Kings (6000/07) - unusual for 1 day I think, & 2 Brits (70019/70024) - even a single Brit was fairly uncommon in TM. Unfortunately Fotopic doesn't seem to offer a way of contacting Malcolm Wilton-Jones the owner of the site.

[Robin Summerhill]

All the photos in the site are dated 24 September 1958 which is a bit suspicious & definitely can't be the case for all of them.

Why do you say that?

Although I wasn't involved in 1958 (I was six at the time ) it looks to me like a quite ordinary day in TM in the late 50s/ early 60s.

Strikes me that somebody went to TM for the day with a couple of rolls of film and pointed his camera at most things that turned up!

Well, apart from the 1959-built Warships that Dave has pointed out, there is West Country 34029 (which wasn't rebuilt until December 58 ) & City of Truro with CalRly 123 (if you look carefully enough you can just make it out) which visited TM for the last week of March 1960 (after display at Swindon in conjunction with the naming of Evening Star).

Even overlooking these anomalies I still think there is just too much variation for 1 day at TM for 1958-60. There are 2 Kings (6000/07) - unusual for 1 day I think, & 2 Brits (70019/70024) - even a single Brit was fairly uncommon in TM. Unfortunately Fotopic doesn't seem to offer a way of contacting Malcolm Wilton-Jones the owner of the site.

That's me told then!!

[mow]

If you look below the photographs, there is a box on the left for comments.

It should be possible to leave a comment which the chap could access. It could be worth a try.

[mjt]

If you look below the photographs, there is a box on the left for comments.

It should be possible to leave a comment which the chap could access. It could be worth a try.

Thanks for the tip. I've done it.

[Marsh'Un]

Evening `all

To return to Martin`s original query on the Compounds;

The December 1958 issue of Trains Illustrated states " Some standard class "4" 4-6-0`s have been drafted to the Bristol-Gloucester-Birmingham stopping trains in place of compound 4-4-0`s; 75004/21/22 are at Bristol Barrow Shed and Nos 75009/23".

This indicates that regular compound working to Bristol would have ceased by October `58, although as previously suggested by Robin, later irregular visits may have taken place.

Unfortunately, my spotting days did not begin until the final few years - How I would have loved to have seen the 2 82E "Pugs" and 3 unrebuilt "Patriots" - not to mention the "Scots" that visited in 1960/61.

You lucky people !!!!

Regards,
Roy

[DAVE]

Can remember Pug 51218 at Barrow road in the late fifties early sixties, cannot remember any Patriots stabled there at that time but did "cop" a few there in those years.
Scots were quite regular visitors however, 46100 Royal Scot being a notable visitor in that time.
The sheds resident Jubilees Barfleur, Trafalgar and Leander were supplemented by various other members of the class bringing in trains from Leeds, Derby etc.
As the Peaks came into service there visits became less frequent and I can remember Leander and co being laid up at the side of the shed.
It became quite a common sight to see brand new Peaks arriving on running in turns and quite a few were attached to Bath road.
Happy days were spent in holidays from school and weekends" bunking "round St Phillips Marsh and Barrow road and spending the rest of the day at TM.
Not forgetting train journeys around the country visiting sheds with official passes obtained from BR or bunking them where we could not get passes.
The Bristol Railfans club took us farther afield to the north, Scotland etc.
Happy days!

[Robin Summerhill]

Off the original topic, but some allocation information for 82E from April 1960 onwards (all data from my research - see the website):

Unrebuilt Patriots 45504/06/19 allocated until withdrawn March 1962

Jubilees 45572/77, 45651/60/62/82/85/90/99 all there until August 1961, when all except 45682/85/90 went to Shrewsbury

Last MR 4-4-0 (simple not compound) 40537 transferred away August 1961

Pugs 51217/18 allocated to 82E for Avonside Wharf duties.51217 withdrawn November 1960 when a D21xx shunter took over, but 51218 remained in store until November 1962 as a spare - nothing larger could get down there if the diesel failed!

Scots were never based at 82E, but those shedded at Leeds Holbeck were frequent visitors. All the Leeds engines were withdrawn by December 1962, but the bad winter of 1962/63 caused an Indian Summer (if that's the right term in this context ) for steam, and I'm pretty sure some were taken out of store until the thaw came and the diesels unfroze!

Peaks D33 to D42 were allocated to Bath Road, but were actually worked by Barrow Road men who had to walk down there to pick up their steed!

[bristolian]

Can remember Pug 51218 at Barrow road in the late fifties early sixties, cannot remember any Patriots stabled there at that time but did "cop" a few there in those years.
Scots were quite regular visitors however, 46100 Royal Scot being a notable visitor in that time.
The sheds resident Jubilees Barfleur, Trafalgar and Leander were supplemented by various other members of the class bringing in trains from Leeds, Derby etc.
As the Peaks came into service there visits became less frequent and I can remember Leander and co being laid up at the side of the shed.
It became quite a common sight to see brand new Peaks arriving on running in turns and quite a few were attached to Bath road.
Happy days were spent in holidays from school and weekends" bunking "round St Phillips Marsh and Barrow road and spending the rest of the day at TM.
Not forgetting train journeys around the country visiting sheds with official passes obtained from BR or bunking them where we could not get passes.
The Bristol Railfans club took us farther afield to the north, Scotland etc.
Happy days!

Here are a couple of shots of mine of 51218, more to follow:-
http://www.flickr.com/search/?s=int&ss= ... 218&m=text

[mjt]

The December 1958 issue of Trains Illustrated states " Some standard class "4" 4-6-0`s have been drafted to the Bristol-Gloucester-Birmingham stopping trains in place of compound 4-4-0`s; 75004/21/22 are at Bristol Barrow Shed and Nos 75009/23".

This indicates that regular compound working to Bristol would have ceased by October `58, although as previously suggested by Robin, later irregular visits may have taken place.

Roy - thanks for that, an interesting bit of info.
I've just reread Stanley Jenkins' article 'Bristol: Midland/LMS Lines' in Steam Days for June 2009. In it he states that '... Bristol was one of the last haunts of the class 4P compound 4-4-0s ...' - but he doesn't elaborate or give any dates! What surprises me, & which caused my original post, is the apparent lack of photos shewing compounds in Bristol after about 1952. One would have thought that photographers would have made an effort to record them in their last years. Jenkins' article does include a photo of a Compound heading towards Glo'ster at Mangotsfield North. It is 41028, an ex-MR one, withdrawn from Barrow Road in Oct 1952. When did Barrow Road lose its allocation? According to BritishSteam 41028 was the last to be withdrawn from Barrow Road but of course there may have been others transferred away subsequently. RailUK.co.uk lists 40935, 41012, & 41028 as being allocated to Barrow Road in 1948. 41012 & 41028 were withdrawn from there in Jan 51 & Oct 52, but 40935 ended its days at Birmingham (Bourneville) in April 1958.

[Marsh'Un]

Martin

I have recently bought the book "Shed by Shed (Part Six)" by Tony Walmsley which gives details of steam engines allocated to W.R sheds from 1950 onwards.

Although Barrow Rd did not become part of the Western Region empire until 1958, the 22A info is included.

Details of the 4P Compounds allocated to Barrow Rd reads as follows;

40935 9/50 to 10/51
41012 9/50 to 1/51
41028 9/50 to 2/52 & 4/52 to 7/52
41030 9/50 to 8/51
41140 9/51 to 2/52 & 4/52 to 7/52
41198 6/53 to 7/53

The "departure" dates listed could refer to withdrawal or transfer to another depot.

Also, out of interest, the 1958 edition of the Observer's Book of Railway Locomotives (What a great series of books they were !) states;
"The rapidly dwindling number of survivors are mainly to be found on semi-locals between Birmingham and Bristol, Leeds and Lancaster and occasionally on other parts of the former Midland line".

[mjt]

I have recently bought the book "Shed by Shed (Part Six)" by Tony Walmsley which gives details of steam engines allocated to W.R sheds from 1950 onwards.

Thanks very much for that info Roy - I'd never heard of these books but I've found their website ( http://www.shedbyshed.com/ for anybody else interested) & will have to get Vol 6 myself. The very shortlived allocation of 41198 in May/June 1953 is surprising in view of the departure of all the others a year previously.

Also, out of interest, the 1958 edition of the Observer's Book of Railway Locomotives (What a great series of books they were !) states;
"The rapidly dwindling number of survivors are mainly to be found on semi-locals between Birmingham and Bristol, Leeds and Lancaster and occasionally on other parts of the former Midland line".

Mine is the 1960 edition by which time there were only 4 left (40936, 41168 at Monument Lane, 40907 at Millhouses, 41063 at Bradford) & Bristol doesn't get a mention.