First Great Western in news

[Blackthorn]

I just found this story online, hopefully it's the start better service.

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/homepage ... ticle.html

I really hope the trains are more comfortable than the school buses that First operate in this country.

[get_that_bus_out]

They've definitely improved massively over the last year or so.

As for comfort, I think the refurbishments, especially the HSTs, are great. Others however would have you believe that they're cattle trucks/the death of train travel as we know it largely because of a much lower number of fixed tables in standard class.

My view is hats off to FGW for managing to increase the number of seats and make sure that there is enough room for my legs in all of them!

[stationcat]

It's wonderful what can be done with statistics. However from 01 Jan to 31 Dec 2008 I racked up 2,860 minutes in delays travelling between Nailsea & Backwell and Paddington, not what I'd call impressive. Personally I don't find the seating in any way comfortable.

[James]

They've definitely improved massively over the last year or so.

As for comfort, I think the refurbishments, especially the HSTs, are great. Others however would have you believe that they're cattle trucks/the death of train travel as we know it largely because of a much lower number of fixed tables in standard class.

My view is hats off to FGW for managing to increase the number of seats and make sure that there is enough room for my legs in all of them!

Oxford. Hardly the far south west is it? Try travelling on them for more than an hour, 1- with luggage (seats have replaced mid-carriage luggage racks and space behind back-to-back seats, leaving vestibules and aisles stuffed full of baggage), or 2- with a family of more than 2 people who want to sit together, and see what you think then. Rock hard cushions, bolt upright seats, claustrophobia from staring at the "flying F" on the ridiculously high seat back wedged in your face. And then try doing it at night, when you are blinded by lights that seem to have been based on arc-welding equipment. Even people high up in First are saying that the Refresh is a disaster.

[get_that_bus_out]

Oxford. Hardly the far south west is it? Try travelling on them for more than an hour, 1- with luggage (seats have replaced mid-carriage luggage racks and space behind back-to-back seats, leaving vestibules and aisles stuffed full of baggage), or 2- with a family of more than 2 people who want to sit together, and see what you think then. Rock hard cushions, bolt upright seats, claustrophobia from staring at the "flying F" on the ridiculously high seat back wedged in your face. And then try doing it at night, when you are blinded by lights that seem to have been based on arc-welding equipment. Even people high up in First are saying that the Refresh is a disaster.

Settle down, settle down! James, I know you don't like it when someone has the temerity to disagree with your point of view, but (leaving aside the fact that I reckon a large number of people in Devon and Cornwall might argue that Taunton isn't the far south west either...) no need to pick on me for where I live!

Anyhow, given that I travel often to Carmarthen using the HSTs I have fairly extensive experience of using them for 3 - 4 hour journeys. I don't find them uncomfortable or claustrophobic. Luggage space does not seem to be a particular issue given that the overhead racks are reasonably deep, there never were mid-carriage luggage racks in the old HST stock and the luggage stacks at the vestibule ends were maintained. Before you chastise me for not travelling at peak times with luggage, how about to Swansea on 23 December with three suitcases? It wasn't a problem. The problems started on the ATW service out the other side but that's another story.

And I've also travelled in groups of 4/5 too. It's fine, just find some seats near to each other. Believe it or not, unless you've reserved, it's not that easy to find a block of four or more seats on any train, even ones with more fixed tables.

[James]

Settle down, settle down! James, I know you don't like it when someone has the temerity to disagree with your point of view...

It's not just my point of view this time, honest!

...but (leaving aside the fact that I reckon a large number of people in Devon and Cornwall might argue that Taunton isn't the far south west either...) no need to pick on me for where I live!

I don't just use HSTs to travel Taunton - London or Taunton - Bristol, that's why I used "the far south west".

Anyhow, given that I travel often to Carmarthen using the HSTs I have fairly extensive experience of using them for 3 - 4 hour journeys. I don't find them uncomfortable or claustrophobic. Luggage space does not seem to be a particular issue given that the overhead racks are reasonably deep, there never were mid-carriage luggage racks in the old HST stock and the luggage stacks at the vestibule ends were maintained. Before you chastise me for not travelling at peak times with luggage, how about to Swansea on 23 December with three suitcases? It wasn't a problem. The problems started on the ATW service out the other side but that's another story.

You're right about the mid-coach luggage racks on FGW, sorry. I've spent too much time on the ex-MML sets of Cross Country, which did have them. There was a lot more luggage room in between the back-to-back seating though, and it meant people could keep an eye on their suitcases, as they were close by.

I find the problems usually occur on trains going beyond Taunton, heading much further south west. It's not easy to get on a train when luggage is piled up against the doors on both sides of a vestibule. Not sure how safe it is either, considering that it blocks escape routes. It's not just in peak or summer season either, and again, it's not just me complaining.

And I've also travelled in groups of 4/5 too. It's fine, just find some seats near to each other. Believe it or not, unless you've reserved, it's not that easy to find a block of four or more seats on any train, even ones with more fixed tables.

At least pre-Refresh, you actually had the chance to reserve a bay of 4 around a table, particularly in the "Family coach", which was almost entirely made up of seats around tables (but is now mostly airline). Have you ever sat in the few bays of 4 with people opposite? You won't find any legroom there! It's reasonably easy to find aisle seats in vaguely the same area due to the large numbers of solo travellers who bag the window seats...although God-forbid if you ask them to move their hand luggage! If they have a larger bag (due to the lack of luggage space) then there's no way anyone can sit there.

Finally, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the level of seat (dis)comfort! All I know is that my backside starts aching at either Westbury or Reading, depending which direction I'm travelling...perhaps I need to put on some more padding!

[Blackthorn]

Wow. There's quite a difference of opinion about FGW's comfort and service.

I had looked at their website, after my last post, to get an idea if the seating layouts of the coaches and was a little surprised to find only a few small photo's that aren't very helpful, first class seating did look pretty comfortable. There didn't seem to be anything other than a description of the overnight service! The quiet coach surprised me, I couldn't quite figure out if it would be like a morgue with everyone sitting staring into space or if the rest of the train was occupied by videogame playing nightmare children and borderline cardiac arrest business men screaming into their mobile 'phones. On the plus side the food menu's looked quite good, prices weren't too bad considering, if you could book a seat. It makes me a little nervous about booking anything online.

The last time I was on a British train (not preserved railway)was 1980 (Gloucester to London behind 50 045 Achilles, I remember being disappointed that we weren't going by HST). I seem to recall the stock was MK1 and the food was awful. I was only 12 so that may not be entirely correct about the MK1's!

[get_that_bus_out]

Lots of pics of the refurbished HST at
http://cjm.fotopic.net/c1164891.html

First class is indeed very civilized, but standard's pretty good as well. The quiet coach is supposed to be free of mobile phones and tinny second-hand headphone noise, although plenty of people cheerfully ignore this rule and not all senior conductors enforce it. Unlike Amtrak, you are actually allowed to talk in there!

The food service isn't bad - decent range of items from the buffet although it's not cheap by any means. The travelling chef service is great, but too often fails to materialize on the day. I haven't sampled the Pullman restaurant but it is said to be very good. I can't believe it's as good as VIA Rail's restaurant service though - I travelled from Vancouver to Winnipeg by sleeper last year and felt like I had put on about 10 lb by the time I got off the train. The Alberta prime rib was the best steak I've ever had!

[James]

A few shots of the MK3s as they used to be:

http://rollingstock.fotopic.net/p46149039.html (FGW Standard)

http://anoraksia.ukgeeks.co.uk/p6932211.html (FGW Standard "Family Coach")

http://rtranmers2007.fotopic.net/p45948447.html (with ex-MML "Rio" seat fabric)

http://rollingstock.fotopic.net/p42930996.html (Rio)

...and an additional view of Standard class as it is today:

http://rtranmers2007.fotopic.net/p42754231.html (FGW Standard - even the family coach looks like this now)

[jules]

I've always thought that "Airline Seat" is a massive fo-pah on the part of the railway marketeers.

If I wanted to be squeezed into an "airline seat" for two or three hours, I'd get on an aeroplane ....

The term "Airline seat" just gives the whole wrong message. Nobody but nobody likes airline seats. Why not call it what it is - high-density seat?

I much prefer travelling by 158/9 nowadays.

[Gary]

I have to agree with Jules about the the standard class "airline seats". They may be comfortable(ish) to sit in, but your only view is of the back of the seat in front. I'm over six foot, but I can't see over them to get any perspective or change focus to prevent eyestrain on a long journey. This is especially bad when you're sat next to a window pillar and can't see out!

Another eyestrain-related gripe is the glare from the too-bright ceiling lights at night. Does anyone remember how nice it used to be to travel at night when you could still see lighted objects passing by outside the train? Now all you can see is a reflection of the carriage interior.

Still, that's rail travel in the 21st. Century - I suppose I'd better get used to it.

[Blackthorn]

After looking at the interior pictures and seating plans, (many thanks for the links), our decision has been made a lot easier. I don't think that after spending seven hours in a seat on a plane I will want to spend another two in an airline type seat on a train. We'll probably opt for the fist class seats so we can actually sit facing each other. The trick will be talking my girlfriend out of packing most of the contents of her closet so we're not overloaded with bags!

[James]

After looking at the interior pictures and seating plans, (many thanks for the links), our decision has been made a lot easier. I don't think that after spending seven hours in a seat on a plane I will want to spend another two in an airline type seat on a train. We'll probably opt for the fist class seats so we can actually sit facing each other. The trick will be talking my girlfriend out of packing most of the contents of her closet so we're not overloaded with bags!

If you're really lucky you might get one of the unrefurbished Buffet cars in your set...there are still a few around with the old interiors and lovely soft seats:

http://tonysrailphotos.fotopic.net/p42129514.html (FGW interior)

http://mostlyrailways.fotopic.net/p46386316.html (Rio interior)

In my opinion, the Rio-style FC seats are the most luxurious on the network.

[nickt]

Refering to lighting in HST's I find generaly that half lights have been switched on which provide more than adequet lighting (full lighting guarantees arc eye), the re-fitted carriages are (in my opinion) not lacking in foot space and are reasonably comfortable smooth and quiet. The most annoying thing I find is quite a few times I found the coaches with the flattest squarest wheels which irritates the heck out of me, come on stick em on the lathe.
Passengers placing large baggage on seat can be asked to move items or I gather be charged a fare for them at train managers discretion.
As for Aircraft Seats, First are not the first (sorry) to use or experiment with aircraft type seats. This type of seat was used in the XP64 TSO experimental coaches back in 1964, admittedly they were layed out in a more spacious way alowing limited stowage of luggage between back to back seats.
(For anyone not familiar with the XP coaches, they were an experimental set using mk1 boy shells and modified with extra wide doors a variety of different trims and features, roller bearing bogies and alternators instead of dynamos, BUT , they were insulated with BLUE ASBESTOS. which is why my group who were planning to overhaul an XP64 TSO eventualy withdrew.)
Well done FGW you do a good job with what you have and what you have to deal with.

[jules]

Well done FGW you do a good job with what you have and what you have to deal with.

I quite agree. FGW have done a generally very good job with the limited 30+ year old resources they are allowed. They got to fit everybody in somehow.

But I still think whoever came up with the brand name of "airline seat" as applied to the railway was a complete idiot. It just gives totally the wrong message to the passenger (er, sorry .... customer).

It almost says "Take the plane", our seats are just the same. To me, it's a submissive statement that says "We can't offer anything better". Rubbish!

But of course, higher density means we no longer have the luxury of seats lining up with windows. Perhaps HST2 won't have wide windows, just little 12" aircraft portholes to "enhance the passenger's flight experience" even more

My point is, the railway shouldn't be "borrowing" or attempting to emulate the "airline" product in order to promote itself. It has its own offering which is far superior to air travel, so when doing its marketing it really should concentrate on its superior service.

I would have called them "City Rider" seats or some other such nonsense