I would be very interested to discover the exact capabilities of the signalling at Clifton Down, particularly with respect to the potential reversal of Severn Beach line services there during engineering possessions further down the line.
The current possession seems to be Narroways Hill to Severn Beach and I understand the current work is being performed near Sea Mills. The reasons for my questions are to try and establish whether, with a little more effort, FGW / NR *could* have maintained a service as far as Clifton Down this week, rather than just abandoning the several hundred people who use this link every day to a hopelessly ineffective replacement bus service.
I'd be interested to discover the factual signalling capabilities and possible procedures. Also the exact extent of the work that is being undertaken along the line and where.
Signalling at Clifton Down & Severn Beach Work
From a technical aspect the branch is worked with a flexible terminus depending on the time of day. (Avonmouth or Severn Beach) When the train reaches the terminus the guard pops out and telephones the signalman to let him know. The signal changes to green and the train returns to Temple Meads. There is no reason whatsoever that this couldn't happen at Clifton Down even with an engineering blockade further down the line.
Clifton Down Signals
True, Avonmouth and Severn Beach are signalled both for in and out from the platforms, but is Clifton Down?
I don't believe there are bi-directional signals for either platform, or whether it is possible for a train to run into the "wrong" platform in order that it might be signalled to return - or to run into it's normal platform and then return without be signalled out.
At least not without manual intervention.
Are the points at Clifton Down operative, or do they route into the right platform all the time and allow running from the trailing direction against the points automatically?
I don't believe there are bi-directional signals for either platform, or whether it is possible for a train to run into the "wrong" platform in order that it might be signalled to return - or to run into it's normal platform and then return without be signalled out.
At least not without manual intervention.
Are the points at Clifton Down operative, or do they route into the right platform all the time and allow running from the trailing direction against the points automatically?
The rules and regs allow for running red lights and running the wrong way down the line as long as the signalman is contacted first. It's standard procedure on the SB line for the guard to contact the signalman at reversal so permission could be granted at that time.
With an engineering blockade beyond Clifton Down the run round loop is irrelevant, nothing would be allowed to use it. So the branch could be worked as if a single line to terminus. The train runs to a timetable and the only signal on such a branch controls the exit to the main line. All you need is confirmation from both driver and signalman that the train is to proceed in the right direction.
With an engineering blockade beyond Clifton Down the run round loop is irrelevant, nothing would be allowed to use it. So the branch could be worked as if a single line to terminus. The train runs to a timetable and the only signal on such a branch controls the exit to the main line. All you need is confirmation from both driver and signalman that the train is to proceed in the right direction.
But if the points at Clifton Down are passive, you couldn't run out "wrong road", the only way is the direction you are already going in, unless the points are manually clamped. I'm not convinced as yet - we need inside info to confirm!
Anyway, latest report from Sea Mills is:
Anyway, latest report from Sea Mills is:
At lunchtime today we have welded track extending smoothly out of the
tunnel and round the corner, the lights well clear on one side, and the
old 60 ft track panels on the other. Yesterday's vast fleet of vans at
Sea Mills has dispersed, leaving just six with about ten men eating
lunch and two more walking in the direction of the tunnel. No other
activity in sight.
It is obviously all done, and no real reason why Andrew G cannot send
out a train to fetch my wife home. Network Rail could come back for the
panels on Sunday.
Seriously, although Network Rail can be complimented on getting on with
the actual job, they appear to be allowing themselves far too much
margin. At the very least we should be asking for a system for
restarting the train service early if the margin is not needed.
Time to tee the council up to get on the ball and ask why a major
Bristol transport facility is repeatedly being taken out of service for
longer than necessary.
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stumpytrain
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The points at Clifton down are motor worked, controlled by Bristol Panel. On the up loop (up is towards severn beach) at the narroways end there is a spring point, which is obviously trailing in the normal direction of traffic. They can be seen in this photo:
http://www.bristol-rail.co.uk/images/wh ... sroad2.jpg
Anyway, with the line blocked beyone Clifton the easiest way to run trains would be for the up trains to terminate under signalling in the up platform, then shunt to down platform via the beach side single line with the accompaniment of a Pilotman working to/from the point of obstruction (in this case the detonator protection). Rule book section here:
http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/docushare/ds ... 189/P2.pdf
Are you really sure that they're not working between Clifton and Narroways?
Alex
http://www.bristol-rail.co.uk/images/wh ... sroad2.jpg
Anyway, with the line blocked beyone Clifton the easiest way to run trains would be for the up trains to terminate under signalling in the up platform, then shunt to down platform via the beach side single line with the accompaniment of a Pilotman working to/from the point of obstruction (in this case the detonator protection). Rule book section here:
http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/docushare/ds ... 189/P2.pdf
Are you really sure that they're not working between Clifton and Narroways?
Alex
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stumpytrain
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While it's fair to say that in times of emergency (such as a train failure or line obstruction) it is possible to do pretty much whatever you want as long as the driver and signalman come to a clear understanding about what is required. However, if the obstruction is planned a more robust method of working is required. There is no signalled route from the single line in to the down loop at Clifton (unlike Avonmouth) in the up direction. I guess if you wanted to run straight in to the down loop you could publish a method of working in advance and have working by pilotman from Narroways Jcn. to Clifton with some form of additonal protection to limit the moment at the Avonmouth end of the down loop.madhattie wrote:The train runs to a timetable and the only signal on such a branch controls the exit to the main line. All you need is confirmation from both driver and signalman that the train is to proceed in the right direction.
In my opinion the most likely method would be shunt via the single line as mentioned in my previos post.
Alex
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Bartonhillbum
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Clifton Down and single line working
Not being a 'rail person' I can only pass on the statement made to me by Mr. Andrew Griffiths of FGW (First Group Worst to you and me). When I made the remark that it surly would be easy using 2 trains to run a 30 min service to Clifton Down, with every alternative train going on to Avonmouth ?
(forget running trains to Severn Beach - the locals prefer the bus, as it saves them walking to the station and the bus also passes several places of employment and at present picks up passengers from them, which would be lost if the train ran to and from SB, also the locals get to know the driver - who stops closest to where they wish to board/alight, unlike the train).
To return to the subject - I was informed by AG that the trains can not use the single platform to enter Clifton Down and depart from the same on the return journey to BTM due to the points and that the train would have to clear the track at Clifton Down, go through the tunnel so clear the axle counter and then return to the opposite platfrom for the journey to BTM.
For Clifton Down is the most used station on the whole line for journeys to and from BTM (142,000) and then Stapleton Road (74,000) and Montpelier (65,000) Redland (50,000) Lawrence Hill (46,000) So a half hourly service to Clifton Down would serve the majority of passengers and have room for improvement. to the other stations on the line, with the level of service that they already have, for those who do not travel on the line, beyond Clfton Down towards Avonmouth the train is near empty, I use the 09.08 and the 16.38, 4 days a week to Clifton Down.
The one improvement they could bring out would be to make season tickets available on the train and to stop the use of credit cards for silly tickets (I have seen a passenger buy a ticket from Lawrence Hill to Redland with a visa card, like lots of shops there should be a minimum purchase of ú10 on a card).
There is talk of getting all trains (not HSTs) that travel North from BTM stopping at Lawrence Hill and Stapleton Road, this could encourage the use of the train between these stations and BTM as none are linked by any bus at present - for me to get to BTM, by bus involves two buses, a swalk of about 1/4 mile between getting off one bus and boarding the next and can take up to an hour plus ú3.50 day rider ticket. Whereas from Lawrence Hill to BTM takes 3 mins, costs ú1.00 return.
Sorry such a long posting, Happy Easter, well it nearly will be by the time you have read this lot.
(forget running trains to Severn Beach - the locals prefer the bus, as it saves them walking to the station and the bus also passes several places of employment and at present picks up passengers from them, which would be lost if the train ran to and from SB, also the locals get to know the driver - who stops closest to where they wish to board/alight, unlike the train).
To return to the subject - I was informed by AG that the trains can not use the single platform to enter Clifton Down and depart from the same on the return journey to BTM due to the points and that the train would have to clear the track at Clifton Down, go through the tunnel so clear the axle counter and then return to the opposite platfrom for the journey to BTM.
For Clifton Down is the most used station on the whole line for journeys to and from BTM (142,000) and then Stapleton Road (74,000) and Montpelier (65,000) Redland (50,000) Lawrence Hill (46,000) So a half hourly service to Clifton Down would serve the majority of passengers and have room for improvement. to the other stations on the line, with the level of service that they already have, for those who do not travel on the line, beyond Clfton Down towards Avonmouth the train is near empty, I use the 09.08 and the 16.38, 4 days a week to Clifton Down.
The one improvement they could bring out would be to make season tickets available on the train and to stop the use of credit cards for silly tickets (I have seen a passenger buy a ticket from Lawrence Hill to Redland with a visa card, like lots of shops there should be a minimum purchase of ú10 on a card).
There is talk of getting all trains (not HSTs) that travel North from BTM stopping at Lawrence Hill and Stapleton Road, this could encourage the use of the train between these stations and BTM as none are linked by any bus at present - for me to get to BTM, by bus involves two buses, a swalk of about 1/4 mile between getting off one bus and boarding the next and can take up to an hour plus ú3.50 day rider ticket. Whereas from Lawrence Hill to BTM takes 3 mins, costs ú1.00 return.
Sorry such a long posting, Happy Easter, well it nearly will be by the time you have read this lot.
Reversal at Clifton Down
Yes, I've heard about the infamous axle counter in the tunnel and it would be interesting to hear a signaller's view on this. Isn't an axle counter in Clifton Down tunnel a bit OTT, considering the normal service pattern and vehicles used on the route? When did anybody see a 150 split at the middle? Let alone a 153!
Anyways, the danger as I (and FOSBR) see of reversing trains at Clifton Down for the half hourly service, would be that Clifton Down to Severn Beach could be in danger of becoming the "withered arm". We have campaigned for more trains for the whole route and it seems that the current signalling arrangements at Clifton Down may have gone some way to help in providing this!
All power to Bristol City Council (for once) in having the vision to provide the extra budget for the next three years, because it is commonly known that to grow a train service takes at least three years before the public gets used to using it. (And a reliable operator!)
A half hourly frequency and a nearer clock face timetable should go a long way to help this happen, but it will take time. Longer term, it would of course, be great to see the service expanded to operate via Filton West to Bristol Parkway and beyond, to help alleviate the congestion problems South Glos have created up there. And of course, let's see the Park and Ride at Shirehampton rail connected to save on some of the empty buses that run up and down The Portway all day.
As to the Severn Beach bus, from what you say I'm sure the resident's there would prefer a train AND a bus in those circumstances.
Ticketing - yes, people buying 80p fares with a credit card is damned annoying, but unlike a shop, where the transaction can be declined, on a train if somebody decides they are going to use a card, you can hardly decline the transaction and let them travel without a ticket (or put them off the train).
Personally, I think the ticket machines are too slow and they should use pre-printed tickets for local destinations. I'm sure it would not be beyond the wits of FGW to provide the conductors with a set number of pre-prints from each station to BTM and then void the unused ones and simplify the fare structure a bit. This would mean the conductors could just hand them out and collect the money and the data (which sometimes seems more important than the cash itself) would still not be lost.
But we all know there is severe lack of revenue collection between the intermediate stations (especially during the evenings) and it seems FGW are quite happy for this situation to continue. Though I have heard of plans for Ticket Machines on the stations (stick your credit card in those before you board, eh?) and a new passenger information system. Ticket machines or pre-prints would certainly cut down on the queue of people delayed on their way to work each morning buying a ticket to just get out of BTM. And don't forget that Bristol is soon to be a penalty fare zone.
Anyway, the initial point of this thread was the complete closure of the line a few weeks back, when the only work taking place appeared to be between Clifton Down Tunnel and Avonmouth. Despite the signalling restrictions at Clifton Down, I now believe that with a little more effort, it would have been possible to maintain the service at least to Clifton Down (it's been done before) and thereby avoid a week of complete disruption to the many regular users of the line. I for one was not *at all* impressed by the alternative of catching the 73 bus from Monteplier to Temple Meads - for twice the price of the rail ticket and taking twice as long.
As for Monteplier and Redland, the replacement coach service is an absolute joke, involving a 30 minute detour of East Bristol and then across the M32 at rush hour, just proving that within the inner city, a replacement bus is just not a practical substitute for our rail service.
As you say, that's if you have a bus to Temple Meads, which East Bristol does not.
Oh, and while I'm at, wouldn't it be great to see a Sunday service .....
Anyways, the danger as I (and FOSBR) see of reversing trains at Clifton Down for the half hourly service, would be that Clifton Down to Severn Beach could be in danger of becoming the "withered arm". We have campaigned for more trains for the whole route and it seems that the current signalling arrangements at Clifton Down may have gone some way to help in providing this!
All power to Bristol City Council (for once) in having the vision to provide the extra budget for the next three years, because it is commonly known that to grow a train service takes at least three years before the public gets used to using it. (And a reliable operator!)
A half hourly frequency and a nearer clock face timetable should go a long way to help this happen, but it will take time. Longer term, it would of course, be great to see the service expanded to operate via Filton West to Bristol Parkway and beyond, to help alleviate the congestion problems South Glos have created up there. And of course, let's see the Park and Ride at Shirehampton rail connected to save on some of the empty buses that run up and down The Portway all day.
As to the Severn Beach bus, from what you say I'm sure the resident's there would prefer a train AND a bus in those circumstances.
Ticketing - yes, people buying 80p fares with a credit card is damned annoying, but unlike a shop, where the transaction can be declined, on a train if somebody decides they are going to use a card, you can hardly decline the transaction and let them travel without a ticket (or put them off the train).
Personally, I think the ticket machines are too slow and they should use pre-printed tickets for local destinations. I'm sure it would not be beyond the wits of FGW to provide the conductors with a set number of pre-prints from each station to BTM and then void the unused ones and simplify the fare structure a bit. This would mean the conductors could just hand them out and collect the money and the data (which sometimes seems more important than the cash itself) would still not be lost.
But we all know there is severe lack of revenue collection between the intermediate stations (especially during the evenings) and it seems FGW are quite happy for this situation to continue. Though I have heard of plans for Ticket Machines on the stations (stick your credit card in those before you board, eh?) and a new passenger information system. Ticket machines or pre-prints would certainly cut down on the queue of people delayed on their way to work each morning buying a ticket to just get out of BTM. And don't forget that Bristol is soon to be a penalty fare zone.
Anyway, the initial point of this thread was the complete closure of the line a few weeks back, when the only work taking place appeared to be between Clifton Down Tunnel and Avonmouth. Despite the signalling restrictions at Clifton Down, I now believe that with a little more effort, it would have been possible to maintain the service at least to Clifton Down (it's been done before) and thereby avoid a week of complete disruption to the many regular users of the line. I for one was not *at all* impressed by the alternative of catching the 73 bus from Monteplier to Temple Meads - for twice the price of the rail ticket and taking twice as long.
As for Monteplier and Redland, the replacement coach service is an absolute joke, involving a 30 minute detour of East Bristol and then across the M32 at rush hour, just proving that within the inner city, a replacement bus is just not a practical substitute for our rail service.
As you say, that's if you have a bus to Temple Meads, which East Bristol does not.
Oh, and while I'm at, wouldn't it be great to see a Sunday service .....
Re: Reversal at Clifton Down
Interestingly the severn beach line was only saved from the beaching closures due to the campaigns of the managers of the factories at Avonmouth who wanted to ensure their staff could still get to work.jules wrote:
Anyways, the danger as I (and FOSBR) see of reversing trains at Clifton Down for the half hourly service, would be that Clifton Down to Severn Beach could be in danger of becoming the "withered arm". We have campaigned for more trains for the whole route and it seems that the current signalling arrangements at Clifton Down may have gone some way to help in providing this!
3 car DMUs used to run in the peak to cater for workers from/to Avonmouth.
Now it would appear that is the end of the line with least custom
Half hour that would be great - we used to dream of that kind of frequency in the 70'sjules wrote:
A half hourly frequency and a nearer clock face timetable should go a long way to help this happen, but it will take time.
Again it must be 40 years since a Sunday service ran on this line.jules wrote: Oh, and while I'm at, wouldn't it be great to see a Sunday service .....
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Bartonhillbum
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Severn Beach Line single Line Working
Hi Jules
Sorry I got side tracked, from the thread, (the reason for the conversation with AG of FGW) was the closure of the whole line when the line would be free to Clifton Down. hence the story of the 'axle counter' (I remember them installing it, prior to which the 'track circuit' used to blow almost every time there was heavy rain as the tunnel flooded, and still does, the axle counter means that the 'track circuit' ends at Clifton Down (So I am given to understand)).
With regrads to visa cards and the minimum payment, signs at all stations and on all windows of carrages, coupled with the sale of season tickets, or 'clipper tickets' (a book of 10/15/20 tickets each of which entitles one to a single journey - as used until recently, for over 20 years on Manchester Buses).
Also a simplified price fare a ú1 single any distance would make, life a lot easier for all, including the condutor.
At present about 100 passengers a day are carried on the bus from SB and only 10 on the train to and from SB, on a Saturday there are no journies commencing at SB and only 20 carred to (on averige) Could this because there is no bus !
There is a proposal to move the Shirehampton station towards the Park & Ride so that in the event of a train not running the passengers could link into a frequent bus and the Park & Ride could become a train/bus park & ride, which was my proposal when the park & ride was first muted (F.O.S.B.R. are opposed to this proposal).
Any way the show must go on, at present there is no project inform at Lawrence Hill, Montpelier or Clifton Down, for reasons best known to themselves FGW say the system cannot be live,only give out recorded information, strange when it was 'Wallies and Wonkers' it gave up to the miniute reports or so it seemed. Perhaps I was only dreaming.
Sorry I got side tracked, from the thread, (the reason for the conversation with AG of FGW) was the closure of the whole line when the line would be free to Clifton Down. hence the story of the 'axle counter' (I remember them installing it, prior to which the 'track circuit' used to blow almost every time there was heavy rain as the tunnel flooded, and still does, the axle counter means that the 'track circuit' ends at Clifton Down (So I am given to understand)).
With regrads to visa cards and the minimum payment, signs at all stations and on all windows of carrages, coupled with the sale of season tickets, or 'clipper tickets' (a book of 10/15/20 tickets each of which entitles one to a single journey - as used until recently, for over 20 years on Manchester Buses).
Also a simplified price fare a ú1 single any distance would make, life a lot easier for all, including the condutor.
At present about 100 passengers a day are carried on the bus from SB and only 10 on the train to and from SB, on a Saturday there are no journies commencing at SB and only 20 carred to (on averige) Could this because there is no bus !
There is a proposal to move the Shirehampton station towards the Park & Ride so that in the event of a train not running the passengers could link into a frequent bus and the Park & Ride could become a train/bus park & ride, which was my proposal when the park & ride was first muted (F.O.S.B.R. are opposed to this proposal).
Any way the show must go on, at present there is no project inform at Lawrence Hill, Montpelier or Clifton Down, for reasons best known to themselves FGW say the system cannot be live,only give out recorded information, strange when it was 'Wallies and Wonkers' it gave up to the miniute reports or so it seemed. Perhaps I was only dreaming.
Re: Severn Beach Line single Line Working
Bartonhillbum wrote: At present about 100 passengers a day are carried on the bus from SB and only 10 on the train to and from SB, on a Saturday there are no journies commencing at SB and only 20 carred to (on averige) Could this because there is no bus !
.
Yep there was only one passenger on the mid day train from SB when I was there on Saturday.
http://simon71.fotopic.net/c1234073.html
It can't help that there is no parking anywhere near the station except in residential side streets.
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stumpytrain
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Re: Reversal at Clifton Down
The single line between Clifton Down and Avonmouth is worked under track circuit block regulations. The section of the rule book dealing with that can be read here:jules wrote:Yes, I've heard about the infamous axle counter in the tunnel and it would be interesting to hear a signaller's view on this. Isn't an axle counter in Clifton Down tunnel a bit OTT, considering the normal service pattern and vehicles used on the route? When did anybody see a 150 split at the middle? Let alone a 153!
http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/docushare/ds ... 70/Ts2.pdf
Basically, trains are detected by track circuits and if a track circuit shows occupied the signals protecting that section are held at danger. The section through Clifton Down tunnel used to be track circuited but due to the damp conditions this regularly used to fail. A track circuit showing occuiped when it shouldn't requires working by pilotman which must've caused enough delay for them to decided to replace the TC with an Axle Counter section.
The axle counters do not prevent trains reversing at Clifton. Axle counters simply count axles in and count axles out, there is not requirement for trains to enter and leave from different ends or indeed be "signalled" over the section... Like I said... they count 'em in and they count 'em out. If a different number goes in then comes out it shows occupied.
Trains cannot reverse at Clifton due to the design of the interlocking. When a train is signalled normally on to the single line, the signal coming off from the same end won't clear. Don't ask me why, it's all in the relays... but I believe this method requires less of them and when the line was signalled there was no requirement to provide a facility for trains to turn back at Clifton.
Alex
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Bartonhillbum
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Clifton Down Station
Hi Stumpytrain
The axle counters do not prevent trains reversing at Clifton. Axle counters simply count axles in and count axles out, there is not requirement for trains to enter and leave from different ends or indeed be "signalled" over the section... Like I said... they count 'em in and they count 'em out. If a different number goes in then comes out it shows occupied.
Trains cannot reverse at Clifton due to the design of the interlocking. When a train is signalled normally on to the single line, the signal coming off from the same end won't clear. Don't ask me why, it's all in the relays... but I believe this method requires less of them and when the line was signalled there was no requirement to provide a facility for trains to turn back at Clifton.
You may well be correct stumpytrain. My thought on the issue, as a regular commutor, was based on what I saw happen at Avonmouth when the train terminats there, it uses the same platfrom and just drives out of Avonmouth off the platfrom it came in on, whereas if going on to SB it uses two platforms, I fail to see why it still has to use the other platform even when going on to SB, it just seems to confuse the odd stranger every now and then who uses the station to get to or from Avonmouth.
AG did tell me and several others that the train can not go only to CD because it had to clear the tunnel on the Sea Mills side, perhaps he was telling pokies - a bit like Chris Gibb used to.
The axle counters do not prevent trains reversing at Clifton. Axle counters simply count axles in and count axles out, there is not requirement for trains to enter and leave from different ends or indeed be "signalled" over the section... Like I said... they count 'em in and they count 'em out. If a different number goes in then comes out it shows occupied.
Trains cannot reverse at Clifton due to the design of the interlocking. When a train is signalled normally on to the single line, the signal coming off from the same end won't clear. Don't ask me why, it's all in the relays... but I believe this method requires less of them and when the line was signalled there was no requirement to provide a facility for trains to turn back at Clifton.
You may well be correct stumpytrain. My thought on the issue, as a regular commutor, was based on what I saw happen at Avonmouth when the train terminats there, it uses the same platfrom and just drives out of Avonmouth off the platfrom it came in on, whereas if going on to SB it uses two platforms, I fail to see why it still has to use the other platform even when going on to SB, it just seems to confuse the odd stranger every now and then who uses the station to get to or from Avonmouth.
AG did tell me and several others that the train can not go only to CD because it had to clear the tunnel on the Sea Mills side, perhaps he was telling pokies - a bit like Chris Gibb used to.