Location Quiz

[BristleGWR]

the only one where I would take even the tiniest issue is your assertion that ehe buildings in the background would need to be 3.36 times higher than those in the foreground. Have you taken into account that, although reasonably level, the land does in fact fall away (Google Earth shows 112ft above sea level on the roundabout, 105 feet at the hospital)

I've looked at this a bit closer...

Based on a fall of 7 feet (2.13 metres), the first building being about 8 metres tall, is slightly lower than the photographer, (i.e. the 7 feet fall being linear) and the camera is at a height of 1.725 metres then the building in the background would need to be at least 2.85 times taller.

[Robin Summerhill]

I usually try not to fall into the trap of drawing a conclusion and then trying to find the evidence to suit it, but I may have in this case. Mainly because, as I said earlier, nowhere else I looked at in southern England seems to come anywhere near as replicable as the position at Wells.

I think Jules is probably correct in that we have stumbled across a remarkable coincidence since so much of the evidence could be seen to fit the location.

Even taking into account the fact that insitutional buildings like workhouses would often have far higher ceilings (especially on the ground floor) than ordinary cottages, I agree that it would be remarkably unlikely that it would be 2.85 times taller then the buildings in front.

Furthermore, the fact that the "first" and the "second" lines of buildings have the visible roofline at exactly the same height in the photograph is pushing coincidence to its limit, and takes me down a new line of thought. Perhaps there are not two building lines there at all, but a single one with a section built forward of the main block (ie the building footprint would be a flat "T" shape). There could also be a similar arrangement on the left hand end.

At least this conundrum has kept the forum buzzing for the last few weeks

[Robin Summerhill]

Yet another couple of points have crossed my mind since yesterday (and yes, after the discussions with bristlegwr I went back to looking at the old maps again )

In truth, there aren't that many level crossings in the south and west of England, and those that there are can be pretty easily identified in a couple of hours on the old maps website, and those that obviously aren't contenders can be discounted. Unfortunatey, to my eyes at least, that category includes all of them in an area now bounded by Evesham, Bristol, Dawlish, Chichester, Reading and Oxford. To anybody else who fancies a go at finding this location I wish them the best of luck!

However, a further spanner may be being thrown in the works here because there used to be a tendency for the Ordnance Survey not to show military installations on their maps. Web sites such as Google Earth have tended to negate any attempts at "official secrecy" these days, but a look at even 1" to the mile 7th series maps produced as late as the 1960s will show, for example, white space where we all know RAF Lyneham should be, and the military establishments at Hullavington and South Cerney simply have the annotation "aerodrome" without any building detail.

The reason I mention this is that, if perchance that was a military building in the background (say a hospital), this may not appear on the old OS maps so could further complicate the issue.

[jules]

The reason I mention this is that, if perchance that was a military building in the background (say a hospital), this may not appear on the old OS maps so could further complicate the issue.

Well, that's a thought. It might even explain the proximity of the soldier!

Are we concluding then that it is definitely NOT Wells, but indeed a remarkable coincidence? If so, I guess the search will have to go on ...

When I first posted the pic, little did I realize that it would engage people in such a way and start such a long and interesting thread, through which we've all learned about the former railways of Wells and several detective techniques

Thank you all for your great time and effort to date!

[Robin Summerhill]

The reason I mention this is that, if perchance that was a military building in the background (say a hospital), this may not appear on the old OS maps so could further complicate the issue.

Well, that's a thought. It might even explain the proximity of the soldier!

Thats what made me think of it. Both of the men in the photographs look quite able bodied, but the reason for the trip in the first place could have been hospital visiting, and a serving officer going in uniform would not have been unusual.

Are we concluding then that it is definitely NOT Wells, but indeed a remarkable coincidence? If so, I guess the search will have to go on ...

To me that building in the background looks like Wells Workhouse, and it could easily show what it looked like around the time of WW1. However, Ian's application of logic regarding the position of the shadows, and the sight lines towards the building (ie. what you could see and where you can see it from that angle if the photographer was standing where I thought he was) makes it clear that my suggested location for the photographer cannot be correct.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it could still be Wells if the photographer was standing somewhere else, but I cannot see anywhere else in the railway areas in Wells where this might be.

All that said of course, whilst it might look like Wells Workhouse it also looks like a fairly typical institution-type building put up in the first third of the 19th centuy, so there will be plently of other similar-looking buildings around the country. Finding one like it so close to a railway level crossing is turning out to be the difficult bit

So what I am saying is, unless we are all suffering from collective myopia and can't see the location in Wells on the map, then Wells it cannot be

When I first posted the pic, little did I realize that it would engage people in such a way and start such a long and interesting thread, through which we've all learned about the former railways of Wells and several detective techniques

Absolutely

[BristleGWR]

It's certainly a mystery still!!

On that workhouse website there are quite a number of buildings that look similar in design, but is not the building in the photo.

I reckon that the man on the other side of the crossing and to the right of the lamp on the gate also looks like he is wearing a uniform and an officers hat, which increases the likelyhood that it is military related or near a military establishment.

I've tried searches on the internet for WWI military bases and hospitals and even workhouses converted into hospitals!!

There appears to be a flagpole in front of the first row of buildings. I can't quite make out what is in front of or on the building by the flagpole as the photo is slightly overexposed here. Is it just a tree or creepers growing up the wall or could it perhaps be a fountain or sculpture of some sort?

Have we got any experts who can positively identify the origin of some of the objects. i.e. the lamp on the crossing gate, the gas lamp on the crossing gate post, the motor bikes and sidecars, the push bikes etc? Does the type of rail used help us at all?

The bell tower (?) is quite distinctive, could the style relate to a particular region in the UK?

Incidentally is that a stray hand underneath the elbow of the man wearing the mac?!?! Is the bloke behind him about to pinch whatever is in his pocket?

Jules are there any other photos in the collection which might be related to this one?

[jules]

Incidentally is that a stray hand underneath the elbow of the man wearing the mac?!?! Is the bloke behind him about to pinch whatever is in his pocket?

I does look a bit funny, but I think the bloke behind is holding up his push bike. The man in the mac has one motorcycle glove in the nearest pocket and the other tucked under his arm it would seem.

Jules are there any other photos in the collection which might be related to this one?

There are no other photos at all related to these people or to railways in the collection. The only common thing is that there is definitely a connection to Yatton, as there are some pics of Yatton furniture factory vans.

One thing I don't think we have investigated fully is the motorbike registration number. We have known from early on that the Y relates to a Somerset registration, but I wondered if it could help with a date? What a Wiki lookup gave was that it couldn't possibly be earlier than 1st Jan 1904, when the law requiring number plates came into force. Given that the first number plates were at first, a single letter followed by up to 4 numbers, then a double letter with 4 numbers - and that this system ran until about 1932 until they ran out of numbers and letters, our example of Y3781 would logically suggest the motorbike was the 3,781st vehicle to be registered in Somerset after 1st Jan 1904. Presumably there would have been a bulge of numbers at the start to be applied to existing vehicles, so if we could find out how many vehicles existed in Somerset when the new law was introduced, we could narrow down the date considerably.

I also discovered a huge spreadsheet with all UK registration number ranges and when they were allocated (some people are sadder than us lot - obviously!) The Y Series ended in Feb 1921, when YA took over. Of course the motor bike could have existed long after 1921 so this tells us nothing about the latest possible date. But the usage rate of the Y series is interesting - it took 17 years to use up all the Y numbers, a straight average of 588 vehicles per year, indicating that our motorbike on linear average was registered in the last quarter of 1910. This needs to be skewed for two factors - the initial bulge of existing vehicles at the start of the series (which I think wouldn't have been more than say 1,000, given the subsequent allocation rate), plus the presumably exponential growth of the usage of motor vehicle registrations from 1904 to 1932.

I believe on this data the earliest possible date for our picture would be 1912 or 1913, which ties in rather nicely with the presence of Army uniforms.

I wonder if Somerset CC or DVLA still have licensing records back that far? We could probably find out the exact earliest date, his home address and his name (and the type and color of the motor bike!) From that, we could possibly track down where he might have been from military or family records .... Well, it would be another approach.

I expect someone will have a different theory on my date calculation though

[jules]

I don't know much about motorbikes, but I'm going to guess ours is a 1912/1913 era Matchless. Note the handlebars with the reverse brake and clutch levers:



http://www.artvalue.com/image.aspx?PHOTO_ID=2572402

[jules]

The strangest thing about this to me is that although the photo was originally posed for necessary reasons back then, it probably only took five minutes to take. Little would the subjects and photographer know that a century later, long after they are all gone ... that the photograph would become such an object of intense speculation as it has on here.

And if it hadn't had been for shipscaptain over on Flickr, it could have so easily ended up in the bin ... lost forever.

We have to track it down ... We owe it to their memories!!

[Robin Summerhill]

I don't think there's much mileage in trying to date the motorcycle's registration date (although I understand there are people out there who know about these things), because the style of dress dates the photograph quite clearly in or around the time of WW1.

Some might say that's the only thing we have undeniably established, despite 5 pages and 69 posts

[Robin Summerhill]

I wonder if Somerset CC or DVLA still have licensing records back that far? We could probably find out the exact earliest date, his home address and his name (and the type and color of the motor bike!) From that, we could possibly track down where he might have been from military or family records .... Well, it would be another approach.

Local councils were responsible for motor vehicles and licensing until the DVLA was set up in 1974 (I doubt I'm the only one around here who spent hours in a queue in that building next to the Colston Hall taxing cars and renewing driving licences, which were only valid for 3 years then ).

I don't know for certain what happened to their old records but, if its anything like the situation that existed with local government reorganisation at the same time, "live" information went to the new authority whilst the old archive stuff was often offered to the local County Records Offices. It is not impossible that some of the old stuff went there.

I have had quite a bit to do with the Wiltshire records office over the years, and I have always found the staff very helpful, and enthusiastic in their work. If nothing else, they should be able to point you in the right direction.

There could be an issue with the Data Protection Act these days but, as it is almost certain that all the people who ever owned that motorcycle have long since passed away, a query might fall into the category of historical research.

Jules - you started all this - give 'em a call or an email!!

http://www1.somerset.gov.uk/archives/

archives@somerset.gov.uk

PS - try sending them a copy of the photo and a link to this thread as "credentials"

[railwest]

My attention has just been drawn to this thread from a discussion elsewhere......

Unless there were significant changes of which I am unaware, this location is NOT on Priory Road in Wells for one simple reason - the gate is a long style, probably just a single gate on the side nearest the camera, whereas the Priory Road crossing had TWO gates on each side on 'normal' length. There appears not even to be another gate or road directly across the rail line, suggesting a very oblique crossing, whereas PR was almost square on. Also, the width of the crossing across the railway at PR was almost equivalent to double track, with the single line being off-set to the north side - clearly not the case here. Of course, it could all be a 'trick of the camera angle'......

My first impression when I saw the picture was that something about it reminded me of the WC&PR, but I have no idea yet whereabouts on there it might be - but maybe some other 'minor' railway?

However, going back to Wells......I wonder what Gate Lane crossing used to look like? Take a look at the map on page 146 of Richard Harman's "The East Somerset & Cheddar Valley Railways". However that crossing was supposed to have been taken OOU in 1900, so maybe a bit early for motorbikes??? Could this in fact even be not the 'main' crossing on that road but the siding further north - would that have had a gate anyway? Maybe something for the 'Wells detectives' to look at again???

Chris Osment
SDRT Signalling Steward
West Country Railway Archives

[Robin Summerhill]

Having never heard of Gate Lane before Chris's post, I identified it to the east of Priory Road. The maps we have been looking at from 1903 show the crossing severed but, even if it was in use, you couldn't get the correct angle on the Workhouse from there. (But thanks Chris for coming over from the Southern Email Group to have a look )

No crossings of the railway are shown on the 1903 map between Priory Road and Tucker Street stations, or on the S&D line towards Glastonbury within range of the workhouse, so that appears to rule out that angle as well.

A further thought that struck me as I thought about this over the last couple of days was that the inclusion of the railway was probably incidental. The important part of the shot was clearly the subjects, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if that building in the background also had some significance. Otherwise, why shoot it there? If it was just a photo of a jolly day's outing, why not have some local place of interest in the backgound, rather than a darn great building and a bit of virtually unidentifiable railway?

It might be easier to identify the building first and then the railway element would fall into place looking at the appropriate map (although that's what I thought I was doing when I suggested Wells in the first place! )

It is also clear from the photograph, by the number of people wanting to cross the line after the gates were re-opened, that the railway is running through a populated area rather than on the edge of one. Once again, Wells fits the bill in principle but in practice the angles don't work, but this again automatically excludes a number of crossings where there is nowhere in particular for anybody to go once they get to the other side.

I thought the point about "minor railways" was worth looking at more closely as well. As we have already mentioned, the WCP would be a prime contender, but looking at the old maps for the three major towns doesn't find anything that jumps out and suggests "our" location.

"Minor railways" might also apply to yards, lines into docks etc, so with that in mind I started to look at non-passenger lines in such places as Portishead, Bristol, Bridgwater, Exeter and Plymouth. Still no joy there for certain, but there was a workhouse in Bridgwater within photographic range of a railway line (now demolished by the way, but also didn't seem to be the right shape for our building), and also a barracks just outside Plymouth Millbay station, but that area would probably have been far too built up even in those days.

Its a pity that this photograph didn't come to light two or three years ago - somebody could have gone and asked Harry Patch if he knew anything about it

[Robin Summerhill]

Its a pity that this photograph didn't come to light two or three years ago - somebody could have gone and asked Harry Patch if he knew anything about it

Just a further, more serious, thought on this - there are probably at least as many WW1 historians around as there are railway historians.

Jules - have you thought of referring this to some of them?

[railwest]

But thanks Chris for coming over from the Southern Email Group to have a look....

Well, somebody mentioned the word 'Wells'

I still can't work out the apparent relationship of railway, crossing, road, and distant buildings. Can anyway post up a quick sketch of their impression of the overall layout, that might help to jog the memory further?[/quote]