The no. 33 bus thread ....

[Matt Thomas]

Ah, but the real challenge was the ascent of Park Street on a 1950s bus!

This involved an interminable series of down changes through the "crash" gearbox, after which "the forward motion was barely perceptible" (to adapt Peter Smith's description in "Mendips Engineman" of Evening Star's signal check on the last Pines' climb to Masbury summit.)

Yes, perhaps it's time we got back to trains. On a related subject, I always understood that the Lickey was the steepest incline in Britain with a regular passenger service.

But it wasn't - it was Werneth Incline, near Oldham. Or was there an even steeper one?

[Bill]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Administrator, stick around! Its not all about trains

Indeed, and all life in those years was not just about buses (which I had little interest in but seem to have retained peripheral memories), for at the rear of the house we had the Frome branch railway running, and visible from my bedroom window. By this same period the passenger trains had finished, but there were two freight trains, mainly for colliery coal, which went out each morning, one after the other, at about 0800 and then 0830. One was locomotive 4102 and the other would be 4131. There's a lot of other detail I still recall, which I can write on the North Somerstet line thread here if any are interested.

[Robin Summerhill]

Yes, perhaps it's time we got back to trains. I always understood that the Lickey was the steepest incline in Britain with a regular passenger service.

But it wasn't - it was Werneth Incline, near Oldham. Or was there an even steeper one?

The Lickey is of course 1 in 37 for just over 2 miles

Seven Mile Bank on the Brecon & Merthyr Railway between Talybont and Torpantau was at 1 in 37 (almost continuous). Passenger services ceased at the end of 1962.

The Folkestone Harbour branch is 1 in 30 and is not "officially" closed yet, although that day may not be long in coming.

The Werneth incline was about a mile at 1 in 27, with very little in the way of passenger service in its later years. Closure came in 1963.

But the steepest gradient to ever see a passenger service would have been on the Cromford & High Peak. The steepest ones (Sheep Pasture 1 in 8, Middleton 1 in 8.5) passengers walked up as these were rope worked by stationary engines, but Hopton incline, a trifling 1 in 14, was worked by adhesion. The pasenger service ended after one was killed in 1877.

Now, can we get back to Bristol buses please

[Bill]

I think you'll find that the steepest passenger train gradient on the national system, still with a very frequent passenger service, is the 1 in 27 between Liverpool James Street and Birkenhead Hamilton Square. It is this steep down to the middle of the river from both sides. For some reason it rarely features in such discussions.

But back to buses. Bristol has indeed to be up there for the city with the steepest gradients and the most underpowered buses in the 1960s. Sheffield always specified the biggest engines a manufacturer offered for this reason.

Something tells me that LC5000 was a 5-cylinder, not a 6-cylinder, accounting for the poor power.

[Robin Summerhill]

I think you'll find that the steepest passenger train gradient on the national system, still with a very frequent passenger service, is the 1 in 27 between Liverpool James Street and Birkenhead Hamilton Square. It is this steep down to the middle of the river from both sides. For some reason it rarely features in such discussions.

I didn't know about that one, but going off on a slight tangent, if you are going to include electric railways:

The Manx Electric railway goes up some very impressive hills between Douglas and Ramsey

Ditto the Snaefell Mountain Railway on the same island.

As regards steam-worked railways in the UK, the Snowdon Mountain railway has some quite impressive gradients. Average 1 in 7.86, steepest section 1 in 5.5. Rack and pinion assisted, of course.

Finally, Bill, you obviously know more about Sheffield than me (my experience being mainly limited to Midland and Victoria stations in the 60s). Whenever I think of Sheffield and steam these days I am reminded of Fred Dibnah and his efforts in trying to get his engine up those hills

[StrawberryLine]

Something tells me that LC5000 was a 5-cylinder, not a 6-cylinder, accounting for the poor power.

The Lodekka prototypes LDX.001 and LDX.002 were fitted with Bristol AVW engines which I believe were 6 cylinder.

[Mitch]

LC5000 was indeed fitted with a six cylinder Bristol AVW engine. New to Bristol Omnibus in October 1949, it was withdrawn in 1963 and passed through a couple of dealers before sadly being lost to the scrap man in 1968.

[Philip M. Hicks]

Hello - I think I can go back a bit further than most of the correspondents on this topic. In the 1950's the #33 service started from the larger two islands making up the 'Tramway Centre' back then.
The nearest island to the harbour, with a low walled garden was directly in front of the Hippodrome [ Is the Hippodrome still there?] Traffic did a scissor type of crossing roughly between the end of Baldwin St. and the bottom of Colston St. The present scissor type traffis intersection came later on.
Buses started their journeys from stops all around this second island which stretched to the begining of Rupert St. and Nelson St. There was a large toilet block on the Northern edge of the island just beyond the end of Colston St. The #33 Bus stop was about opposite the end of Colston St. on the Baldwin St. side of this island.
The Malborough St. bus station didn't exist back then. I'm not sure just where the long distance coaches started back then, there were Royal Blue and other coach lines then. I have an idea they started from Lower Maudlin St. and what is now the Haymarket along side St. James Park.
My railway connection with the #33 to Bath was my going to see the S & D at Bath Green Park. Getting off the bus along Newbridge Rd. Bath and walking over the Victoria St. bridge [ it seems to be closed now?] over the river to get into the shed.
It was never any trouble 'bunking' Bath shed on a Sunday. There were 4 of Bullieds 'Spam Cans' shedded there then -'Crewkern' - 'Wilton' - 'Dorchester' and 'Combe Martin' - worth seeing and all very exotic to a GWR Bristolian in the early 1950's.
Incidently I lived in Sea Mills and caught a #28 Avonmouth to the Centre bus to catch the #33. The #28 used to start and finish at the bottom of Colston St. I enjoyed this reminising I hope I haven't bored any one.
My regards, Phil Hicks. Leura. NSW. Australia.

[jules]

Hello Philip and thanks for your update. I still live in Sea Mills when I am in the UK. Just up the road from the square and the bus stop you started your distant past journeys from - sitting here right now actually

No doubt you will enjoy this pic here. A recreation of the past from the Bristol Vintage Bus people a year or two ago!

[carpetcone]

[ Is the Hippodrome still there?]
Yes the Hippodrome is still there.

[ The Malborough St. bus station didn't exist back then. I'm not sure just where the long distance coaches started back then, there were Royal Blue and other coach lines then.]

Bristol Greyhound services ran from Prince Street, where Bristol had a booking office. Bristol Bus station at Marlborough Street was opened in 1958

The traffic flow around "The Centre" today is no way near as effective and smoothe as it was before the council started improving things.....

[bristolian]

Lovely shot of a set of Bristols!...

[Philip M. Hicks]

Hello Jules - That is a great photograph of Sea Mills square. My family and I for part of the time lived at 50 Trymside, Sea Mills from about 1947/8 through until about 1968/9. So the area is quite familiar to me.
The buses drawn up arond the middle round about are the right model for ones used on the #28 route in the late 1950's. When I first used the route it was serviced by much older pre WW2 vehicles. I can visualise them but would have a hard job describing them.
The #2 route in those days turned around in that location and was probably one of the first cross city route. It ran from Sea Mills to Lockleaze [?] and was nearly always serviced by the fleet of Leylands that the Bristol Ominibus Co had in the early 1950's. On the radial road going out just behind the first bus in your picture route 1D terminated having come through Canford Lane from Westbury-on-Trym. Route #1 was also an early cross city route from Brislington to W-o-T.
The #28 route never went to Lawrence Hill [first buses indicator in your photo] in the period I'm talking of, it went from Avonmouth to the Centre only. In the mid 1960's when I lived in Bishopsworth the #28 extended out to Withywood under the new cross city re-organisation.
At school in my early teens I attended Bristol Technical School near Bedminster Bridge. On days when the weather ruled out cycling from Sea Mills I used the route #99 From Avonmouth to Prince St. going alond the Portway. I used to get off at Bathurst Basin. The route #99 then was serviced by really old buses from the early 1930's [ regos began HT / HU / HW / HY ! ] Old rattlers for the Avonmouth dockers going to and from work!
This is an interesting dig into the past. My regards Phil Hicks Leura, NSW. Australia.

[Robin Summerhill]

.
The #2 route in those days turned around in that location and was probably one of the first cross city route. It ran from Sea Mills to Lockleaze [?] and was nearly always serviced by the fleet of Leylands that the Bristol Ominibus Co had in the early 1950's. On the radial road going out just behind the first bus in your picture

You are probably thinking of these: http://www.bvbg.org.uk/images/LAE13%20P ... 0LAE13.jpg

The Leyland Titans that were aquired just after the war. They were (in my days of noticing these things) almost exclusively employed on the no.2 aervice and were based at Eastville. I used to use them regularly when I lived in Staple Hill and a load of my mother's relations lived in Kingsdown.

The major thing that I remember about them was that, even taking into account the suspension characteristics of vehicles in those days, those buggers were absolute boneshakers!

As you will see from the BVBG website, one has been preserved. Unfortunately I've not yet come across it at one of the rallies but, when I eventually do, I intend to find out whether the riding of the thing is as bad as I remember from half a century ago!

[Philip M. Hicks]

Hi Robin - Yes that is one of the Leylands I remember, at least it has the right rego and fleet number. Many others had regos such as KHW 630 etc. Did you notice that the Leyland # C4044 has it's indictor blind showing #33 [for] Bristol via Keynsham etc. on it! Fitting for our topic - The No. 33 bus thread.
However, is that Leyland C4044 original body? I can see that it is an Eastern Coachworks of Lowestoft body common to buses in Jules picture. They were of a later vintage than the Leylands though.
It's just that somehow it doesn't quite fit with my recall of the Leylands in the 1950's. I thought they had a different body then. They were the first buses in Bristol to have [for the 1950's] a more modern body. All the other buses of the time of the Leylands introduction in the late 1940's/early 1950's had sloping or cuved fronts and rears and the windows all had winders on an opening half glass. They had no opening windows on the front and no sliding top lights. I think the Leylands were the first in Bristol to have sliding top lights for ventilation.
It is of course always possible that Bristol Tramway and Omnibus Co. put a later body on some of the Leylands in the 1960's - they did so for many of the earlier buses. [ But by then I was using my own transport!]
Regards from Phil Hicks. Leura. Australia

PS. I've found an example photo of the type of Bristol bus I was trying to describe as a late 1940's to early 1950's vehicle. Look in http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/674745 ... decker-bus [ FOT674745 ] Regards from Phil H.

[jules]

At school in my early teens I attended Bristol Technical School near Bedminster Bridge.

Was that the school in Stillhouse Lane? What a dump! If it is the place I am thinking of, I went there too, but only for a year in 1970 when it was the first year school for St Mary Redcliffe and Temple Colston.

See here - This one will take you back to your school days!:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fray_bentos/2285159853/