Charfield Loops

[tonyperks]

Naughty boy what are you doing on the line?

Taking pics Actually, there's a footpath that crosses here, so perfectly legal.

I have only been here two weeks i never knew there was a footpath looks like an excellent spot to phot' the blue pullman then.

[Robin Summerhill]

I do not know if the regulation is now defunct but a passenger train could use a goods loop in an emergency if the exit signal is cleared before the train enters the loop its self I actually did this with a passenger train after conferring with the panel supervisor can"t be shot now to late!

Sorry (perhaps ) for resurrecting a three year old thread, but I've been looking through the old ones today and this reminded me of something.

A few months ago I bought a winter 1963/64 WR timetable on Ebay, and I was intrigued by something odd in the local service between Gloucester and Bristol. The last stopper of the day was the 1740 from Gloucester, and this is shown in this timetable as terminating at Charfield at 1824.

Another train then appears, starting its journey at Charfield at 1838 and continuing all stations to Bristol arriving at 1917.

An eye trained in railway timetabling can see what is going on - the stopper has been looped at Charfied to allow the 1215 Newcastle express to pass. So the intention clearly was: "run to Charfield, detrain passengers, set back into the loop, allow express to pass, return to station, pick up passengers and clear off on towards Bristol."

Now, this was right in the middle of my train spotting period and I caught this train on a number of occasions returning from Gloucester to Staple Hill. But I never recall being thrown out at Charfield, and I also don't recall this train ever being late away from Gloucester (or certainly not the half an hour late it would have had to be to let the express away first, as that left at 1809).

Leaving the Rule Book to one side for a moment, day to day operation in the "real" world might suggest that, if you let the stopper "amble a bit" on its way south and lose a few minutes, it could quietly slip into the down loop at Charfield, let the express past, then come back out again and proceed to Bristol without all the bother of detraining, setting back, and picking up again.

I know that how the railway is run these days might be a little different to how it was run in 1963/64, but what do some of you older hands think about my possible scenario/ explanation?

[tonyperks]

Actually i do recall seeing a photo somewhere of a 2 coach local in the loop at charfield,but cant remember if in a book or at a display somewhere?

[buxton4472]

Sorry to re-visit this thread but I regularly used to cadge a cab ride back into the down loop at Charfield on this disjointed local stopper! Usually a 73XXX or Black 5 but sometimes a 'Hall' once Barnwood had closed. I believe the practice of 'looping' the stopper for the down express only happened during the last two years the station was open. Prior to that it always provided a good connection from the York - Bristol express which preceded it out of Gloucester. So the detraining at Charfield was a barmy bit of timetabling, giving the travelling public much to grumble about on a cold winter's evening when they were prised from their warm compartment onto a frosty platform. At least the fire was lit in the waiting room!

Incidentally, back in the late 50's regular motive power on this stopping train were Jubilees - Trafalgar, Shovell, Rooke spring to mind in particular - always looking well turned out and a bit too important-looking for a meagre three ex-LMS coaches!

Whilst on the subject of the loops, does anyone have an accurate date for the conversion of the original up and down refuge lie-bys at Charfield into loops? They were equipped with power operated points at their north ends - presumably these were installed at the time of conversion (shortened levers 2 and 8 in the signal-box frame).

And can anyone recall an incident in Aug/Sept 1960 (I think) in which a 9F 2-10-0 ran through the stopblock at the north end of the up loop and down the embankment, taking with it some of its fully fitted train of vans? Some locals were involved in pilfering some of the 'goods' (confectionery and tobacco perhaps from Fry's and Wills' at Bristol?). Unfortunately, I was away on holiday from the village and only arrived back after the mess had been cleared up! Any info would be much appreciated.

[Robin Summerhill]

Sorry to re-visit this thread but I regularly used to cadge a cab ride back into the down loop at Charfield on this disjointed local stopper! Usually a 73XXX or Black 5 but sometimes a 'Hall' once Barnwood had closed. I believe the practice of 'looping' the stopper for the down express only happened during the last two years the station was open. Prior to that it always provided a good connection from the York - Bristol express which preceded it out of Gloucester. So the detraining at Charfield was a barmy bit of timetabling, giving the travelling public much to grumble about on a cold winter's evening when they were prised from their warm compartment onto a frosty platform. At least the fire was lit in the waiting room!
.

Firstly, I'm sure Pete will agree that there's no problem with resurrecting old threads, especially when things go a bit quiet around here

Secondly, after my last post on this thread in November 2010 (which itself was a resurrection!), thinking about it I do remember being detrained at Charfield on one occasion when using the 1740 ex-Gloucester.

Whilst I agree that this was a barmy bit of timetabling, from the timetables that I have (and now have access to via Michael Clemens site) it appears that it must have been realised as such by the powers-that-be, because it didn't last very long. My timetables from 1959 show it as a through train; Michael Clemens WTT for 1960 also appears to show a through train (page 68 of the .pdf doesn't indicate any shunts) and, by the time of the last WR timetable (summer 1964) before the stoppers were withdrawn, the train was once again being shown as a through service from Gloucester to Bristol.

It appears, therefore, that this apology for timetabling only applied in 1963 and perhaps a few months on either side.

Given that Barnwood closed in May 1964, and that last timetable commenced on 15th June of that year, the spectacle of a Hall shunting the stock back into the loop must have been very short-lived indeed (unless of course Barnwood were in the habit of borrowing engines from Horton Road before that and, if they were, I don't recall seeing any ex-GW engines on the stoppers during my days at Staple Hill prior to June 1964).

[buxton4472]

I don't suggest that Halls were a common sight on that particular stopper but 6985 'Parwick Hall' was on it more than once. Back in the early 60s 7808 'Cookham Manor' and 7810 'Draycott Manor' were regulars, too. But let's not forget ex-LNE B1s (mainly Canklow-based) which could be seen on many summer Saturdays working to Bristol. On one day both the 1:53 up and 2:00 pm down (SO) stoppers were at Charfield simultaneously , both with B1s at their heads.

[trafalgar45682]

The 17.40 stopper from Gloucester to Bristol was worked by Western Steam fairly frequently between January and June 1964, some 20 times in all. 6985 Parwick Hall on Jan 14, 6957 Norcliffe Hall on Apr 22/28/29 and 6995 Benthall Hall on four occasions in May. On Feb 20 the engine was 6349 !.

Other Gloucester stoppers also had Western motive power occasionally prior to the closure of St Philips Marsh in June 1964.

The 9.30 from Gloucester (arriving 10.55) reverted to steam haulage in December 1963, generally with Western Motive Power, presumably to free up a Peak for Christmas Parcels duty. Here is a photo of Castle 7013 Bristol Castle on the train on Dec 21 1963.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolste ... hotostream


The 16.30 from Gloucester arriving at 17.44 was an interesting turn near the end in 1964. The Oxley Castle that arrived on the early morning Crewe Parcels was used as a fill in turn. When the 9.15 Gloucester was dieselised at the beginning of November 1964, the Castle would go LE to Gloucester at 10.50 and return with the 16.30. It would later head north on 3M00 23.25 Crewe parcels.

[Robin Summerhill]

I don't suggest that Halls were a common sight on that particular stopper but 6985 'Parwick Hall' was on it more than once. Back in the early 60s 7808 'Cookham Manor' and 7810 'Draycott Manor' were regulars, too. But let's not forget ex-LNE B1s (mainly Canklow-based) which could be seen on many summer Saturdays working to Bristol. On one day both the 1:53 up and 2:00 pm down (SO) stoppers were at Charfield simultaneously , both with B1s at their heads.

I shall defer to Patrick's superior knowledge of individual trains because he kept far better records than I did, and most of mine were lost 40 years ago, so most of my recollections come from memory!

That said, ex-WR power on the Gloucester stoppers was far more common after Barnwood closed than before it, and really this comes from the traditional way in which things were run as late as the early 60s.

Barnwood was the "Midland" shed in Gloucester and Horton Road was the "GW" shed. Barnwood depot covered duties on the former MR routes with LMS, Midland and Standard engines, whilst Horton Road covered the duties on the former GWR lines with (predominantly) ex-GW engines. This being the case, if it was Barnwood's job to provide power for a given train, it would be more likely to be a "Midland" engine at the business end rather than a "Western" one.

In later years things got a bit more mixed up, especially on the Berkeley Road to Sharpness shuttles after the Severn Bridge was severed, as Collett 0-4-2Ts were the usual choice for this service and, indeed, Barnwood did have examples of this class allocated for just these duties (eg. 1409 April-Oct 1963, 1421 Nov-Dec 1963, 1426 Apr-Oct 1961, 1445 Dec 63 to Apr 64, 1455 Sep 62 - Apr 63, 1474 Aug 63 - Apr 64).

All that said, the fact remains that Barnwood was the much smaller depot of the two in terms of allocations. To take January 1963 as an exampe, Horton Road had 55 locomotives allocated whilst Barnwood had 24. One was an 0-4-2T as already discussed, 2 were Midand 0-4-0Ts for the docks workings, 2 were Jinties, 3 were 8Fs (unlikely to be used on pasenger work, at least in the winter), 4 were 4F 0-6-0s of various vintages, 10 were Standard class 5s and 2 were Standard class 2s. So of those 24, 16 (at a push - the 4Fs plus the standards) would have been suitable for the Bristol stoppers. But I have no doubt at all that there would have been occasions when Barnwood was short of an engine and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they cadged the odd one now and again from Horton Road!

After Barnwood closed all this changed, because Horton Road inherited all their turns, so it was then far more likely to find ex-GW power on the stoppers.

The B1s were of course somethig different again, working in from the north as they did and often purloined/ used for fill in turns before thay went back home.

[Robin Summerhill]

I don't suggest that Halls were a common sight on that particular stopper but 6985 'Parwick Hall' was on it more than once. Back in the early 60s 7808 'Cookham Manor' and 7810 'Draycott Manor' were regulars, too.

Supplementary to my last post:

6985 was a Horton Road engine until withdrawal in September 1964

Manors were not often allocated to Horton Road, but did arive from time to time, especially on the locals from Hereford. That said, Horton Road had the following Manors on its books post April 1960:

7808 Sept 60 to Jan 61, and again from Nov 64 to Dec 65
7813 Nov 64 to Mar 65
7814 May 64 to Apr 65 and again Jul to Aug 1965
7815 May to Oct 64
7816 Jul to Dec 65
7829 Jul to Dec 65

It appears to me that the transfer of Manors to Horton Road toward the end of steam on the WR was probably due to their being replaced from their duties elsewhere by dieselisation or line closures