James wrote:I just had my first ride in the a HD "refresh" HST, all the way from London, and despite my being extremely pessimistic, it managed to be far, far worse than I expected. What they've done to these superb coaches has left me feeling pretty depressed about the future of travelling by rail. A truly miserable experience that I do not want to repeat (although it will obviously soon be impossible to avoid).
For a start, the only reason there appears to be more legroom between the seats is because the seats themselves are several inches shorter than the originals. This means that half of your thighs, at the "kneeward" end, are completely unsupported. This also means you feel the ridge along the front of the cushion more, as there's more of your weight on it. The (now industry-standard) rock hard "padding" doesn't help here either. It was noticeable leaving Paddington, and was actually painful by Reading. Also causing particular discomfort was the hollow at the back of the seat, where other designs have a lumbar-supporting protrusion. The First Class seats have a wonderful rounded bit of padding here, but the Standards have a concave area, which means even when you sit bolt-upright, your lower back is still unsupported. Cue back pain after less than an hour!
On the plus side, the headrests are a nice shape, but being rock-hard, only a small point on the back of your skull receives any support, so they could be a lot better. The folding table (with laptop extension) and the long armrests combine perfectly to make it very easy to write (bad reviews) with your whole arm supported. However, the new lighting is harsh and unnatural, and its glare gave me a headache after a very short time. The cold, purple tinge also has the bizarre effect of giving the outside world an odd brown hue!
On my list of stock types, indexed by level of comfort, the refresh HST comes second to last, with only the First Scotrail 158s, with their "neckbreaker" headrests (angled too far forward, leaving you staring at your knees), below them. I even consider the bare-minimum seats on the Class 376 commuter EMUs more comfortable, as they're a better shape. Other "hard" seats such as the Adelante's and Wessex refurbished 158s offer far more support in the right places, so why can't the refresh HSTs? It makes a Voyager seem positively luxurious.
The floor-level heater vents are thin, loose, and flimsy, resulting in lots of tinny rattling, and "bash" noises when an errant foot comes into contact with them. You feel every bump, every rail-joint and set of points, even in the middle of the coach where the ride is usually smoothest. The new foam padding has absolutely no give or shock-absorbing capabilities whatsoever. Oh, and I nearly forgot: the clip to hold the toilet seat up has vanished, so woe betide anyone who is taking a piddle when the brakes come on! To put it simply, everything combines to make the travelling experience extremely unpleasant; I love travelling by train, but I did not enjoy this one bit. The journey felt so much longer; it really dragged, and I couldn't wait to get off. This is from a dedicated railfan, remember, so God only knows what the general public (whom we're supposed to be convincing to abandon their comfortable large-seated cars in favour of the railways) will think. I wonder if the prototype for these seats was even trialed on-board before the roll-out began? I very much doubt that anyone involved in the Refresh programme has sat in these seats on a moving train for 2hrs+, or even in the works! They probably looked good on the computer screens though...
Congratulations First, you have utterly destroyed the best intercity stock that Britain has produced. I'm going to keep travelling for as long as I can in the original stock (and Adelantes), but will be making a conscious effort to take the long way round to London now the Refresh sets are becoming more numerous. South West Trains have lovely soft plush seats in their 159s, and even the 444 Desiros offer more comfort. Farewell First, the classic HST, and the Great Western mainline, you will be sadly missed*.
*Well, the last two anyway.
First's "Refresh" HSTs: a review
First's "Refresh" HSTs: a review
I've posted this previously elsewhere, but it deserves repetition:
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stationcat
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i personally think they're an improvement on the old, shame they lost some of the tables in the high density layout,
but on the plus side, i actually get some legroom, instead of having my legs half way into the back of the chair for an hour.
I read somewhere they're supposidly having wireless on them, but i can't pickup anything on my laptop, anyone got any ideas if they have?
but on the plus side, i actually get some legroom, instead of having my legs half way into the back of the chair for an hour.
I read somewhere they're supposidly having wireless on them, but i can't pickup anything on my laptop, anyone got any ideas if they have?
Well you're welcome to them. The "extra legroom" is a con as the seat base is shorter. I'll stick to SWT's wonderful 159 seats thank you very much; I had my first trip on the latest refurbished 159/1 yesterday, and their (sprung) seats have an even thicker cushion than the original 159/0s...plus proper back support. Well done SWT on a first (not First)-rate refurb job.Shazz wrote:i personally think they're an improvement on the old, shame they lost some of the tables in the high density layout,
but on the plus side, i actually get some legroom, instead of having my legs half way into the back of the chair for an hour.
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get_that_bus_out
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Well, I hope this post isn't going to be too controversial or upset anyone (specially cos I'm new!) but... I had my first trip from Didcot to Temple Meads on a refurbed HST on Saturday and (although I was prepared for the worst having read some pretty stinging criticism both on the web and in some sections of the railway press) - 
- actually rather liked it.
I'd probably better point out at this stage that I have *nothing* to do with FGW and am not an apologist for them: they wind me up something chronic at times, especially when they route my regular Bristol - Oxford journey via Reading and Westbury because of engineering work then charge me extra for the privilege of being taken all round the houses. But here goes.
First off, from the outside I think they look superb: they've definitely done the right thing in losing that nasty blue/pink fading effect that they vinyled onto the FGW "launch" train. That deep blue colour with the "dynamic lines" looks really smart.
Onto the inside: yes, I would prefer some more "table" seating than the high-density (HD) refurbs have but the airline seating is actually much better than the old-style HSTs. Sorry James - the extra legroom is not an illusion caused by shallower seats. I'm 6'1", and if I sit right back in old-style HST airline seating my knees are touching the back of the seat in front. In the refurb I had a good two or three clear inches in front of my legs and I wasn't even in one of the priority seats. I didn't have to drag myself over one of those wretched fixed armrests, and there was ample room to spread out with a newspaper and cup of coffee: try doing that in one of the old sets. I found the seat very comfortable and the ride as good as ever: smooth and very quiet, commendable given the smoky old Valenta whistling away just in front (I was in coach A). True the bog has lost the hook for holding the seat up but most of those on the old stock are knackered anyway. The lighting is bright but this doesn't bother me: I prefer to stay awake and read rather than doze off (always a bit worried that I'll wake up in a depot in Laira or Penzance). To be honest, I have found the old HSTs to be a bit dim and insipid inside, especially after dark. And they've found a much better place than Virgin to put the powerpoints: underneath the seat in front so you're not trailing wires over your (or worse, someone else's) lap! Putting glass sides on the vestiblule luggage stacks is another good idea that means you can keep an eye on any bags you leave there.
No it's not perfect. The seat backs are very high but I believe this at least in part due to crash regulations on modern high-speed stock (I remember reading somewhere that the seats are the same as those fitted to DB's acclaimed ICE trains in Germany). This can be slightly claustrophobic but at least there's a nice big window just next to you which helps. And on the plus side, I've actually got something to rest my head against. You're right about the bins disappearing and they've also lost some luggage space by removing the back-to-back seating - could be fun if one of these sets ever finds its way onto a Newquay service on a summer Saturday. Remember though the the plan is to confine these HD sets to Bristol/Cardiff/Oxford services. In due course (correct me if I'm wrong someone) the LD refurbs for Plymouth/Penzance/Swansea/Carmarthen/Pembroke Dock trains should emerge with a pretty similar layout to the old stock.
As for putting the punters off taking the train...just look at the traffic growth Virgin has seen since the introduction of the Voyagers and Pendos. The average passenger doesn't have the good taste to appreciate a 47 with 8 mk2s thrashing up the Lickey: they'd much rather have something shiny and modern-looking. FGW have managed to produce what to all intents and purposes (and definitely to the casual passenger) is a new train.
Hopefully I haven't just made myself too much of a pariah
- actually rather liked it.I'd probably better point out at this stage that I have *nothing* to do with FGW and am not an apologist for them: they wind me up something chronic at times, especially when they route my regular Bristol - Oxford journey via Reading and Westbury because of engineering work then charge me extra for the privilege of being taken all round the houses. But here goes.
First off, from the outside I think they look superb: they've definitely done the right thing in losing that nasty blue/pink fading effect that they vinyled onto the FGW "launch" train. That deep blue colour with the "dynamic lines" looks really smart.
Onto the inside: yes, I would prefer some more "table" seating than the high-density (HD) refurbs have but the airline seating is actually much better than the old-style HSTs. Sorry James - the extra legroom is not an illusion caused by shallower seats. I'm 6'1", and if I sit right back in old-style HST airline seating my knees are touching the back of the seat in front. In the refurb I had a good two or three clear inches in front of my legs and I wasn't even in one of the priority seats. I didn't have to drag myself over one of those wretched fixed armrests, and there was ample room to spread out with a newspaper and cup of coffee: try doing that in one of the old sets. I found the seat very comfortable and the ride as good as ever: smooth and very quiet, commendable given the smoky old Valenta whistling away just in front (I was in coach A). True the bog has lost the hook for holding the seat up but most of those on the old stock are knackered anyway. The lighting is bright but this doesn't bother me: I prefer to stay awake and read rather than doze off (always a bit worried that I'll wake up in a depot in Laira or Penzance). To be honest, I have found the old HSTs to be a bit dim and insipid inside, especially after dark. And they've found a much better place than Virgin to put the powerpoints: underneath the seat in front so you're not trailing wires over your (or worse, someone else's) lap! Putting glass sides on the vestiblule luggage stacks is another good idea that means you can keep an eye on any bags you leave there.
No it's not perfect. The seat backs are very high but I believe this at least in part due to crash regulations on modern high-speed stock (I remember reading somewhere that the seats are the same as those fitted to DB's acclaimed ICE trains in Germany). This can be slightly claustrophobic but at least there's a nice big window just next to you which helps. And on the plus side, I've actually got something to rest my head against. You're right about the bins disappearing and they've also lost some luggage space by removing the back-to-back seating - could be fun if one of these sets ever finds its way onto a Newquay service on a summer Saturday. Remember though the the plan is to confine these HD sets to Bristol/Cardiff/Oxford services. In due course (correct me if I'm wrong someone) the LD refurbs for Plymouth/Penzance/Swansea/Carmarthen/Pembroke Dock trains should emerge with a pretty similar layout to the old stock.
As for putting the punters off taking the train...just look at the traffic growth Virgin has seen since the introduction of the Voyagers and Pendos. The average passenger doesn't have the good taste to appreciate a 47 with 8 mk2s thrashing up the Lickey: they'd much rather have something shiny and modern-looking. FGW have managed to produce what to all intents and purposes (and definitely to the casual passenger) is a new train.
Hopefully I haven't just made myself too much of a pariah
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Agency_Scum
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I like them too but being a 6'6" gorilla, knee room is everything! I also found the S.A.D. artificial daylight lights quite areeable too.
Felt nice to see a bit of cash being spent ( even though at the expense of a much nicer layout ).
Next question: when are the lawyers going to get the useless guardsvan padded enough so the train managers with their delicate hearing can open the buggers up again for us poor cyclists?!
Felt nice to see a bit of cash being spent ( even though at the expense of a much nicer layout ).
Next question: when are the lawyers going to get the useless guardsvan padded enough so the train managers with their delicate hearing can open the buggers up again for us poor cyclists?!
I would have thought the 'new' engines would now be quiet enough - afterall the train managers dont actually ride within the power car.Agency_Scum wrote:I like them too but being a 6'6" gorilla, knee room is everything! I also found the S.A.D. artificial daylight lights quite areeable too.
Felt nice to see a bit of cash being spent ( even though at the expense of a much nicer layout ).
Next question: when are the lawyers going to get the useless guardsvan padded enough so the train managers with their delicate hearing can open the buggers up again for us poor cyclists?!
I am certainly in favour of having more room made available for the cyclist.
The London-Brighton cycle ride used to have the benefit of trains with coaches to accommodate the bikes for the cyclists returning to London.
This service has now stopped due to a change in rolling stock. A definate loss of revenue.
A Bristolian living in Swindon
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Agency_Scum
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