A remnant from busier times

[buxton4472]

As I recall, 1962 was the last year of intensive summer Saturday express workings over the S&D. However, during the summer of 1963 the Gloucester area WTT for the time shows a summer Sats only express from Nottingham to Bournemouth (reporting number 1O91) passing Charfield at 11:12. Unfortunately, that WTT was for the Barnt Green - Charfield section of the ex-Midland main line and therefore shows no timings south thereof.
In 1964 I have a 'spotter's record' of a summer Saturday express with a reporting number 1O71, 'Peak' hauled, passing Charfield at around 11.15 a.m. (which could be the same train the following year - just different headcode maybe, or maybe the roller blinds were stuck!). What I haven't got (and neither has Michael Clemens wonderful resource) is a WTT for the Bristol Area for those two summers to confirm which route this working then took.
Other trains to Bournemouth/Poole from north of Birmingham by this time would have been routed Oxford, Reading West and Basingstoke, so this Nottingham working was an ambiguity. I suppose what really intrigues me is whether this was the last scheduled express over the S&D or was it routed via Bristol, Westbury and Salisbury? Any answers or memories will be very welcome!

[Robin Summerhill]

I haven't got a WTT for the Bristol area for the time period in question either, but I have got a public timetable for the summer of 1964.

But before we even get to that, as you say, express passenger working over the S&D ceased at the end of the summer 1962 timetable, specifically 8th September. Other than a few odds and ends , such as the Bank Holiday Bristol to Bournemouth specials, there were no through express trains over the S&D after that date.

The summer 1964 timetable shows the following workings through Charfield southbound at around about the time you mention - as the expresses didn't stop there, all I can give are the previous and subsequent stops:

0640 Leicester to Paignton leaving Eastgate at 1010, BTM 1103
Wolverhampton to Ilfracombe leaving Malvern Road at 1000, BTM 1127
0810 Sheffield to Penzance (Cornishman) leaving Eastgate at 1108, with no booked passenger stop until Plymouth
0743 Nottingham to Plymouth. Eastgate 1125, BTM 1220
0815 Sheffield to Paignton. Eastgate 1146, BTN 1250
0707 Bradford to Bristol. Eastgate 1203, BTM 1301

There were, however, in 1964 two dated services from Cardiff to Bournemouth routed via the Severn Tunnel and Dr Days/ North Somerset Junction, leaving Cardiff at 0930 and 1130. If the 0930 had been diverted via Gloucester for any reason, its not impossible that that would have gone through Charfield at about 1115.

There being a "Peak" on the front tends to dispel that idea, however, because although they worked into South Wales by that time, they would normally only have been used for northbound trains. The reasons for this are linked: their normal traffic requirements would have precluded their use on fill-in turns in the same way as steam locomotives were "nicked" by receiving depots, and also that SR crews would not have traction knowldge of Peaks, so failure at the other end would have caused a problem with returning it home again.

All that is a long way of saying you may well have seen a Peak-hauled train heading south at Charfield with a destination headcode for the SR, but it wasn't aiming for Green Park at the time

[trafalgar45682]

Buxton 4472 wrote
In 1964 I have a 'spotter's record' of a summer Saturday express with a reporting number 1O71, 'Peak' hauled, passing Charfield at around 11.15 a.m.


You are absolutely right - having checked the WTT for Summer 1964 there was a 1O71 7.35 Nottingham to Bournemouth West train which ran from July 4 to August 29. This train passed Charfield at 11.12 and arrived at Stapleton Road at 11.47. I imagine it changed engines at North Somerset Junction before proceeding on to Bath and Salisbury.

The return working 1M09 10.44 Bournemouth West to Nottingham was steam worked in 1964 and must have changed engines at North Somerset Junction.

Here is a photo of the train at Lawrence Hill on Saturday July 11, 1964

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/5650193198/

Before your post, I hadn't realised that a Midland to Bournemouth train was routed this way in 1964

[buxton4472]

The return working 1M09 10.44 Bournemouth West to Nottingham was steam worked in 1964 and must have changed engines at North Somerset Junction.

Here is a photo of the train at Lawrence Hill on Saturday July 11, 1964

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/5650193198/

Great photo - about 25 minutes later I 'spotted' 'Barham' on 1M09 at Charfield (3:28 p.m.) - sandwiched between 45631 on 1N84 up at 2:46 and 45602 on 1V40 down at 3:39! Other Jubilees noted that day included 45557 on 1V31 at 11:54 a.m., 45598 on 2B74 at 5:08 p.m. and 45674 on a down ECS at 6:30 p.m. All these plus Black 5's, Standard 5's, Halls, Castles and a B1 and a Crab for good measure. Year 1964 was indeed a great final fling for steam around Bristol!

[trafalgar45682]

It was a great time, as you say.

You mention 45631 on 1N84 14.15 York.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/5221536044/

The photo was taken by David Nicholas - I am the smaller of the two boys on the right of the photo. We must have left Barrow Road Shed soon after the photo and gone straight to Lawrence Hill Station to photograph 45653.

Jubilees became quite scarce after the end of the Summer Timetable in 1964. They were mostly Holbeck engines which appeared.

[Robin Summerhill]

This is intriguing me now!

Following Patrick's contribution to this thread, I have trawled the WR public timetable for the summer of 1964 and found no sign of this train. Not in the north east/ south west timetable; not in the Bristol to Salisbury table; not in the summary table for trains to the southern region via Bristol. I even tried looking in the summary trains to SR via Reading table and also the Great Central line table via Banbury and Woodford Halse, just to see if there was a footnote saying "operates via Bristol" or similar.

Absolutely nothing.

This suggests to me one of two possibilities. Firstly that it was an "afterthought" and it did not appear in the original published timetable but appeared in one of the supplements. Secondly this train (and its opposite working for the same applies there) had no advertised passenger stop on the Western Region.

Does anybody else have any ideas?

[trafalgar45682]

My information on these trains come from the WTT Bristol District 15 June 1964 to 13 June 1965.

The morning train (1O71) 7.35 Nottingham-Bournemouth West passes Charfield at 11.12, calls at Stapleton Road at 11.47, departs from North Somerset Junction (after engine change) at 12.03, and stops at Bath from 12.24 - 12.27.

The afternoon train (1M09) 10.44 Bournemouth West to Nottingham stops at Bath Spa 14.01-14.05, is at North Somerset Junction at 14.25 (presumably for engine change) stops at Stapleton Road 14.45 and passes Charfield at 15.18.

Looking at my notes for Summer Saturdays 1963, on Saturday July 20 I have noted Peak D34 arriving at Temple Meads LE at about 12.30 with the headcode 1O91. Was this the same train with a different reporting number, although the same as the Nottingham-Bournemouth train that ran in 1962 over the S&D ?

[buxton4472]

Looking at my notes for Summer Saturdays 1963, on Saturday July 20 I have noted Peak D34 arriving at Temple Meads LE at about 12.30 with the headcode 1O91. Was this the same train with a different reporting number, although the same as the Nottingham-Bournemouth train that ran in 1962 over the S&D ?

The 7:35 a.m. Nottingham - Bournemouth (West) summer Saturday train in 1963 did run as 1O91 (in similar timings), and returned as 1M09. The pair did not run after 1964. In the 1965 season the Bristol Area WTT Section B3 shows a new working from Sheffield to Bournemouth (1O30) but rather than sending it down the ex-Midland to Bristol then via Westbury, it ran via Worcester and the Cotswold Line, thence presumably via Reading West and Basingstoke. It is difficult to decide which is the more circuitous route. I think Robin's thoughts about a train using the Woodford - Banbury - Oxford route is sensible - it would have probably been the quickest way from Nottingham (albeit Victoria!) to Bournemouth!
Just for comparison's sake - in 1961, the 10:05 SO Bournemouth (West) to Derby (via the S&D) reached New Street in 5h 27m. whilst in 1963 1M09 took almost an hour longer. How dare they call the S&D the slow and dirty!

[buxton4472]

Secondly this train (and its opposite working for the same applies there) had no advertised passenger stop on the Western Region.
Does anybody else have any ideas?

In the 1963 WTT both 1O91 and 1M09 ran 'full season', they were not marked as unadvertised and in addition to Stapleton Rd, stopped at Worcester, Cheltenham and Gloucester within the WR. My money's on an omission from the public TT subsequently amended in a supplement.

[Robin Summerhill]

The afternoon train (1M09) 10.44 Bournemouth West to Nottingham stops at Bath Spa 14.01-14.05, is at North Somerset Junction at 14.25 (presumably for engine change) stops at Stapleton Road 14.45 and passes Charfield at 15.18.

Just for comparison's sake - in 1961, the 10:05 SO Bournemouth (West) to Derby (via the S&D) reached New Street in 5h 27m. whilst in 1963 1M09 took almost an hour longer. How dare they call the S&D the slow and dirty!

Just an aside - so during the summer of 1964 this northbound "express" took 3hr 17 mins to get from Bournemouth West to Bath Spa. The times taken by the "slow" through trains on the S&D in the same summer timetable were as follows:

1140 ex Bournemouth into Bath at 1353 - 2hrs 13 mins
1310 ex-Bournemouth into Bath at 1622 - 3hrs 12 mins, called all stations except Masbury
1540 ex-Bournemouth into Bath at 1856 - 3hrs 16 mins including 18 minute stop at Templecombe

And that, apparently, was seen as "progress" in 1964

[trafalgar45682]

Looking through my 1963 notes I noticed that 1O91 was steam hauled on Saturday August 17, 1963 by Jubilee 45569 Tasmania. It must have backed into Temple Meads to gain access to Barrow Road and carried the reporting number. This day was an eventful one. The Barrow Road Diesel Standby was 73015 and at about 17.00 it backed down onto Platform 5 and then proceeded to run through the station and under Bath Road Bridge. It was anounced that the 17.15 Paddington (D813) would run via Badminton and the 17.00 Portsmouth (D7007) reversed out of the station some 40 minutes late. One of the Wolverhampton trains also came through the station rather than using the avoiding line (D802/7012). At 18.45, to everyone's surprise, 73015 ran non stop through the station with the northbound Cornishman (1E24) some two and a half hours late. D30 had derailed itself at North Somerset Junction/Dr Days and blocked the line to London. A group of us went around to see it that evening and it was later removed to Bath Road Depot. Days later two cranes lifted the body from the chassis on Bath Road.