Mystery location

railwest · Post by **railwest** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:24 pm

Please take a look at the photo HERE, which has been passed to me by a contact. Does anyone know where this was taken?

The photograph is attributed to ER Morton, who apparantly lived in the Yatton area . There is circumstancial evidence that it was taken in late 1931 and possible in the Yatton/North Somerset area. But where exactly?

AFAIK it is NOT on the Clevedon branch - certainly it is NOT the S&F box at Clevedon station, and the train seems out-of-character for that line. There are no known locations on the Yatton-Whitham line which fit the bill either.

The location appears to be a single-track branch, with a siding. The material piled adjacent to the siding appears to be (spent) ballast, so may or may not be a temporary feature of that location.

The signal-box gives the impression that it is no longer in use, or perhaps only as a ground-frame. The base is stone with decorative quoins, which gives an impression of Bristol & Exeter Railway, but not the superstructure. The style is not immediately recognisable.

Chris

oldchapie · Post by **oldchapie** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:52 pm

if the photo is pre 1930 then it could be the cheddar loop although in my time the ground frame was at floor level.it was renewed in later years 1940?
the train could have been the ex trowbridge turn in the mid morning arrival at yatton.the stock was stabled at trowbridge.when the trowbridge shed was closed westbury provided the motive power which some times was class53xx
another clue might be that in 1940 the royal train was stabled for a day or soon the loop.

AndyK · Post by **AndyK** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:37 pm

Highly intriguing!
The signal box looks like nothing I've ever seen seen on the GWR and doesn't have the characteristic window frames of GW boxes. The dark stone of the base has a look of the Pennant sandstone much used in the Bristol area (but also in South Wales).

There don't appear to be any signal wires or point rodding emerging from the box, which does suggest it is no longer functioning. Indeed, when I come to think about it, shouldn't we normally expect to see some telegraph poles or wires somewhere in the scene?

I'm no expert on GW coaches, but to me the train looks to be quite important - not just the B-Set that might be expected on a rural backwater - however, what does the headlamp code indicate? - an ordinary passenger train I suppose.

The stone might be spent ballast - but might it also be fresh stone quarried locally, indicating a limestone area?

oldchapie · Post by **oldchapie** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:19 am

on what you have wriiten now bringing southwales to the problem the signal box and the first coach could it be on one of the lines in s wales after 1922.i will keep looking in my books to find a clue

oldchapie · Post by **oldchapie** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:57 pm

the headlamp is in the light engine position the lamp should be on the top of the smoke box i have further studied the background and where the valley loop was one would see the hill known locally as cadbury and also kings hill.i would not support it as the cheddar valley loop.where the ballast is the ground was very marshy and there reeds and a deep ditch leading to the pumping station.

railwest · Post by **railwest** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:55 pm

A follow-up message I posted about the Cheddar loop comment seems to have got 'lost in transit', but essentially I had ruled out Cheddar as both the track layout and box style appeared wrong.

As regards the headlamp position, I am told by at least two people with knowledge of the subjexct that it was a common feature of Bristol crews to put the lamp in that position - but that it was also done in Cornwall and other areas!

If you look carefully - and I admit that I had not noticed it until it was pointed out to me elsewhere! - there are in fact quite a few telegraph wires visible against the sky to the left of the engine front on the far side of the line. Possibly more lines that would be required for a 'simple' branch line, unless the pole route also carried GPO lines as well.

tonyperks · Post by **tonyperks** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:21 pm

It looks very flat perhaps pilning branch?, or somewhere somerset levels?

AndyK · Post by **AndyK** » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:36 pm

tonyperks wrote:It looks very flat perhaps pilning branch?, or somewhere somerset levels?

My first response to this was that it couldn't be the Pilning line as it wasn't opened until 1900, so you would expect any signal box to be of a standard GWR design. But then it occurred to me that part of that branch utilised the course of the Bristol & South Wales Union line towards New Passage. So it might just be possible that this was in the vicinity of Cross Hands Halt and the box a relic of the B&SWU. I guess this would be consistent with the nature of the train which looks as if it could be a commuter train from a major town rather than a strictly rural service.

jules · Post by **jules** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:54 am

So it might just be possible that this was in the vicinity of Cross Hands Halt and the box a relic of the B&SWU.

As far as I am aware, there were no other boxes between Pilning Low Level and Severn Beach. It was always just one long section, though there was a retained branch to the Severn Tunnel pumping station, so you might still be right. Could it be a remnant of that?

From what I recall reading, when this bit of the original B&SWU was re-used as the branch to Severn Beach, the branch to the pumping station was "reversed" so trains approached it from Avonmouth?

It does look very flat - I am also putting my cards on Somerset Levels - one of the S&D branches to Burnham or Bridgwater? Though the train is wrong of course if the date is 1930s ...

I wonder where Mr Summerhill is? Must be on holiday! Last time we had a mystery location quiz on here it took months to nail it, but we got it in the end

AndyK · Post by **AndyK** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:49 am

jules wrote:

It does look very flat - I am also putting my cards on Somerset Levels - one of the S&D branches to Burnham or Bridgwater? Though the train is wrong of course if the date is 1930s ...

There used to be an annual GWR excursion from Weston-Super-Mare to Poole which ran over the S&D. I have a photo of it here in Saga By Rail (J.I.C. Boyd's memoirs) but the loco is a Bulldog and it carries a different headlamp code (one over each buffer).

I did also wonder if it could be on the Taunton-Yeovil branch, but I can't find a location that fits.

And that dark-coloured stone in the signal box is just not you'd expect in mid-Somerset

Robin Summerhill · Post by **Robin Summerhill** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:23 pm

jules wrote:
I wonder where Mr Summerhill is? Must be on holiday! Last time we had a mystery location quiz on here it took months to nail it, but we got it in the end

Mr Summerhill is "lurking" on this one because he hasn't got a bleedin' clue

But he might get tempted later .....

railwest · Post by **railwest** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:59 pm

For some reason my replies to this forum keep getting lost <doh>.....

I have uploaded an higher-resolution scan HERE and updated my original posting's link accordingly. Not that it seems to show anything new....

As regards the Pilning line, I do not have sufficiently detailed maps to make an accurate assessement, but from looking at Cooke's "GWR Atlas" etc IMHO there is nowhere with a suitable configuration that matches. The same applies to the Yeovil, Chard and North Somerset branches, and I have even looked as far afield as the M&SWJR and the DN&SR!

Definitely NOT any known location on an S&D line.

oldchapie · Post by **oldchapie** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:47 pm

in the general appendix the headlamp instructions are laid down and the correct position is on the top bracket.yes sometmes lazyitus came on and we put the lamp on the lower bracket. on the clevedon branch we were allowed to put the lamp on the lower bracket why? because we had to put a red shade in on the return trip this was with the signalmans permission. the correct position on the top bracket was the signal call sign code was 3-1or 1-3 (a stopping train)

railwest · Post by **railwest** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:27 pm

According to discussion about lamps on another forum, the Sectional Appendix gave discretion for the lamp position to be varied in certain circumstances, one of which IIRC was through trains running over branch lines. So it was not necessary a sign of laziness (or fireman with short arms)......

horace · Post by **horace** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:12 pm

Looking at the shadows the sun was fairly high in the sky, so assuming it was taken at the height of the sun, mid day, the train is coming from the north east so heading south west. That is of course if that is the front of the train. Is there any chance that it may be a banking engine and the light is a red light. In which case the train is heading north east.
If the line is a north east/ south west line it rules out a lot of lines.

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