Turning the TPO's

the green mile
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 10:00 am

Turning the TPO's

Post by the green mile » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:13 am

In our previous forum I seem to remember we had a debate about turning the TPO's at Mangotsfield. The subject has cropped up in another group I chat with with the suggestion put forward that turning was carried out at Kingswood Junction. There isn't a triangle there unless we include the rather large one via Montpelier. I think that move would be unlikely and I'm not even sure there would have been a handy crossover between up and down lines. Can anyone remember the gist of our previous debate? It wasn't something I was at all familiar with so I didn't contribute.

While on the subject it has always baffled me why Kingswood Junction was so named. Why not Speedwell, Whoitehall or Greenbank Junction?

Roy

Robin Summerhill
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Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:36 am

Re: Turning the TPO's

Post by Robin Summerhill » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:55 am

The TPOs were definitelty turned on Mangotsfield triangle, and the working appeared in the WTT.

As an example, see page 54 in this document (that's page 54 of the ,pdf, not page 54 of the WTT) - Lawrence Hill dep 0925 and the note explains the working) http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk ... hx?dok=139

In answer to yor secnd question, Kingswood Junction (or a version of it) existed prior to the building of the Clifton Extension. A line led off to the east to the pits in the area and that is possibly where the name derives from, althiugh not actually leading to the Kingswood as we know it today.

Having said that, boundaries change over the years and places often "turn into" somewhere else. I have spent the last few months going in detail into my family tree, and I discovered during the course of that that my great great great grandmother gave birth to my great great grandfather's elder sister at Oldland in 1839. When I got a copy of the birth certificate I found that she was actually born at Warmley Hill (that hill between Warmley and Kingswood) which was a part of the parish of Oldland at the time. I just tell that story to illustrate a change in the area that I actually know about ,and how there may be good reason for things happening that have been lost in the depths of time!

the green mile
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Re: Turning the TPO's

Post by the green mile » Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:30 pm

Thank you Robin. I knew you were part of the original discussion.

buxton4472
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Re: Turning the TPO's

Post by buxton4472 » Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:32 pm

Was it just the TPO vehicles which were taken to Mangotsfield for turning on the triangle or was it the whole consist (which I seem to recall included a sleeper)?

Robin Summerhill
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Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:36 am

Re: Turning the TPO's

Post by Robin Summerhill » Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:29 am

As far as I can fremember the entire rake was turned. On a practical level it would be far quicker to do that rather than split and reassemble it every day.

22A
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Re: Turning the TPO's

Post by 22A » Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:48 pm

buxton4472 wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:32 pm
Was it just the TPO vehicles which were taken to Mangotsfield for turning on the triangle?
When Bath Green Park's turntable was out of order, a rake of up to five locos at a time would go there for turning. There's a photo of such occasion in one of Pete Smith's books.

the green mile
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Re: Turning the TPO's

Post by the green mile » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:49 am

In the mid 1960's our favourite spotting location was a bit of waste ground close to where the Midland line crossed the WR line at the north end of Lawrence Hill station. If my memory is serving me well, we used to hang around there until around 1945 until the Newcastle service growled up the bank. I believe that was the TPO and I seem to recall it went up with a pair of Peaks on the front. The locos were our prime interest rather than the formation of the train itself.

Presumably at Newcastle the formation would have been reversed again for the return journey. Knowing what little I do about the railway layout around Newcastle, I imagine the reversal process would have been a little more straightforward up there rather than having to go all the way up to Mangotsfield. Is there any record of what sort of loco would have been allocated for the Bristol ecs move? Do we know what platform it left from at Temple Meads? These were probably covered in the previous thread which was lost.

Roy

Robin Summerhill
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Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:36 am

Re: Turning the TPO's

Post by Robin Summerhill » Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:26 pm

The only photographs I have ever seen of the Up mail, and indeed the only platform I ever caught it from, was old platform 12 (the remains of which are the stub of platform 1 wnich back then continued into the old station). Presumably the same platform would have been used for the terminating train. In those days trains from the Midland main line either terminated there or the old arrival platforms 4 and 5 (now 9 to 12). They used 4 and 5 in cases where the trains were going further south, or if no.12 was already in use or (I think) if the ECS was going to Malago rather then Lawrence Hill.

That WTT I linked to shows that it left Temple Meads ECS back to Lawrence Hill at 0542, and it would have been taken there by whatever Barrow Road had to hand at the time. AsI recall fromthe time, most ECS workings to and from Lawrence Hill were carried out by a 4F. I would imagine (although I can't remember for certain because I only saw the working rarely as it was carried out during school time of course) that a 4F would have also taken it to Mangotsfield North and back. 4Fs were certainly the maids of all work on the line at the time.

the green mile
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Re: Turning the TPO's

Post by the green mile » Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:25 pm

Quite a load up Fishponds Bank for a 4F if the whole formation was taken up to be turned. That said, I have no recollection how many vehicles were in the formation. Did it have a banker or was it top and tailed? A loco at each end would have made it easier and safer when reversing round the triangle at Mangotsfield. I think this was probably all covered in the previous thread. Should have paid more attention!

I have a vague recollection of TPO's at Malago in my carriage and wagon days during the blue and grey era, clearly after the Barrow Road complex had closed.

That takes me onto another slightly related question I was asked earlier. Where did the bankers come off at the top of the bank. I seem to recall it was Fishponds but without wading through my Terry Nicholls' videos I'm not sure if and where it was actually recorded.

Roy

the green mile
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Re: Turning the TPO's

Post by the green mile » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:57 pm

For the want of anything better to do, I did locate my VHS copy of Terry's collection 'Steam Around Bristol'. There is some good footage of the TPO's going to and from Mangotsfield for turning. The first shows a 4F double headed with a Standard class 3 tank climbing the bank with 3 TPO vans at the front followed by the passenger stock. It is difficult to ascertain the length of the formation but from the return working it appears to be around 8 vehicles in total. A second shot shows a single Standard class 5 4-6-0 which tends to suggest that maybe a 4F was not man enough on its own and maybe it was a case of whatever was available.

Unfortunately, although there is footage of banking on Fishponds Bank (aka Whitehall Bank) there are no clues as to where a banker would drop off.

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